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" The housing problem hasn't been solved" This assumes it is a problem that is being addressed. When housing values soar, there are people getting rich off of

" The housing problem hasn't been solved" This assumes it is a problem that is being addressed. When housing values soar, there are people getting rich off of that. The "solution" is devaluation of people's assets, and all politics is local, and all local politics is housing values. As clearly is a supply and demand issue. Supplies clearly being artificially suppressed. Of course, the housing market merely reflects every other segment in our our "market economy"... Everything is Monopoly cartel or regulatory capture

lenerdenator 3mo ago
Exactly. For most people, the housing problem is that their house isn't worth more. My parents were whining a few months ago about the possibility of new apartments being built not far from their house. Why? More noise, more traffic, more people. Things that would impact the value of their nearly debt-free home. Meanwhile most people my age (mid-30s) who don't have a home have more-or-less given up on the idea of getting one, and people their age (mid-60s) are having the possibility of property tax abatements thrown their way so that they can stay in a home until they absolutely can't anymore, or pass away. The vast majority of American economic decisions are ultimately aimed at passing off more value into the hands of asset-holding retirees. Full stop.
- thunky 3mo ago
  > More noise, more traffic, more people. Things that would impact the value of their nearly debt-free home. Maybe they just don't want the noise and traffic, and they don't really care about the impact on their house value. Seems like you're jumping to a conclusion.
  - lenerdenator 3mo ago
    Yes, I'm jumping to conclusions about the people who I've known since my birth.
    - thunky 3mo ago
      You're right. I forgot that it's impossible for parents and children to misunderstand eachother. I should have realized it, too, because when my parents tell me something, I know what they really mean, and it's not usually what they actually said to me. So of course your parents want their house price to go up so they can pay higher taxes while surrounded by more traffic and noise. Seems so obvious now that you say it.
      - lenerdenator 3mo ago
        > So of course your parents want their house price to go up so they can pay higher taxes while surrounded by more traffic and noise. Seems so obvious now that you say it. Good thing that my county now offers people of their age a way to abate property tax increases so that they can "stay in the home they've known for so long" or whatever the line was. Well, good for seniors. Absolutely awful for the people my age who want to buy a home, start a family, and participate in the economy in ways that those things enable. But we don't much care about those people. Anyways, thanks for clarifying things to me internet stranger.
littlexsparkee 3mo ago
The thing is homeowners benefit from denser zoning because the potential of their land is increased even if the average unit price comes down - also the amenity value of more jobs, amusements, school funding/tax base, etc in the city should show up in the price too.
- tptacek 3mo ago
  Homeowners definitely do not believe that their home prices benefit from denser zoning. (I'm a housing activist, very close to killing off SFZ in my muni, knock wood).
  - bombcar 3mo ago
    Homeowners care less about their house prices than people realize - it's just a convenient excuse. Most homeowners just don't want things to change.
    - tptacek 3mo ago
      I've spent kind of a lot of time talking directly to homeowners, and while I agree a general fear of change is one of the first principal components of this problem, housing price loss aversion is definitely a real thing.
      - bombcar 3mo ago
        Most people don't like loss ( | || || |_ ) but rarely is it really a case of potential loss (unless "density increase" is code for "build a maximum security prison next door") - it's just a case of slower appreciation.
      - tzs 3mo ago
        I don't care much about price loss if it is happening everywhere, so if I ever want to move to another region selling my house here will pay for one there.
the_gastropod 3mo ago
Yeeep. It feels like one of those “holding a wolf by the ears” situations. I don’t know how we get out of this mess. One especially frustrating part of it is that it really benefits nobody. Your home goes up in value, cool. You owe more property taxes. And all the other homes around you also go up in value, so… you’re really no better off unless you downsize or move to a cheaper housing market. Something akin to Georgism seems like the correct answer. But how you get there from here? Beats me!
- john01dav 3mo ago
  One option is to get home prices to stop rising faster than wages by having wage growth speed up while real estate value growth slows down (not necessarily becoming negative). Then, no one is underwater on their mortgage, but buying a house becomes more accessible year over year. Of course, you'll need to eventually stop to address the normal problems with deflation, or address those in some other way. What specific policies achieve this is also a separate question.
- littlexsparkee 3mo ago
  I don't see how home values could hold up with white collar work threatened over the coming years. Anyone's guess as to the timing but tech is aiming at this full force - what else has equivalent TAM? It's too big a prize to discount in the longterm.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
Danox 3mo ago
All of the English speaking capitalistic countries are suffering from the same problem the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand. Housing un affordability for the next generation coming up, starter homes in California are easily at least 500,000 the old two bedroom one car garage starter house I grew up in cost $550,000 today built in the 1925. There is no way anyone in the surrounding area for the most part make enough money to afford to buy it today. The one thing that is going up all over the place across the country are those so-called luxury apartments which cost an arm and a leg even for a one bedroom studio, the one thing that is interesting or ironic. The only reason I can afford to buy anything is because relatively late in life bought as many shares of Apple computer as I could about 21 years ago. Anyone coming up between 18 and 30 are in trouble unless their family is relatively well off and can help them.
- nunez 3mo ago
  Luxury apartments are BS. Lived in one. Slightly above builder grade materials, stainless steel appliances (that are still cheap), Pelotons in the gym and Starbucks in the main area are cool, but the walls are still thin and shit still breaks like anywhere else.
  - littlexsparkee 3mo ago
    Luxury apartment is a term of marketing, all new builds use it. The main problem is the management tends to be lackadaisical. My current place is ~5yo, has great sound isolation, but responsiveness has varied over time and teams.
- thelastgallon 3mo ago
  > All of the English speaking capitalistic countries are suffering from the same problem the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand. A third world country like India has costlier real estate than any of those. A 2nd rate metro has apartments in high rise buildings for $500K - $1M. Unbelievably expensive. Then there are villa communities (equivalent of single family homes, suburbs), which are even more costlier. I keep asking people how do they afford these and how will this sustain, nobody has an answer about how these are afforded but everyone thinks the growth will continue. The usual problems of mosquitoes (dengue, malaria), water problems, power outages, lifts not working, worst air quality, etc, etc .... looks like the only thing copied from western world is super costly real estate.

lenerdenator 3mo ago

Exactly. For most people, the housing problem is that their house isn't worth more. My parents were whining a few months ago about the possibility of new apartments being built not far from their house. Why? More noise, more traffic, more people. Things that would impact the value of their nearly debt-free home. Meanwhile most people my age (mid-30s) who don't have a home have more-or-less given up on the idea of getting one, and people their age (mid-60s) are having the possibility of property tax abatements thrown their way so that they can stay in a home until they absolutely can't anymore, or pass away. The vast majority of American economic decisions are ultimately aimed at passing off more value into the hands of asset-holding retirees. Full stop.

thunky 3mo ago
> More noise, more traffic, more people. Things that would impact the value of their nearly debt-free home. Maybe they just don't want the noise and traffic, and they don't really care about the impact on their house value. Seems like you're jumping to a conclusion.
- lenerdenator 3mo ago
  Yes, I'm jumping to conclusions about the people who I've known since my birth.
  - thunky 3mo ago
    You're right. I forgot that it's impossible for parents and children to misunderstand eachother. I should have realized it, too, because when my parents tell me something, I know what they really mean, and it's not usually what they actually said to me. So of course your parents want their house price to go up so they can pay higher taxes while surrounded by more traffic and noise. Seems so obvious now that you say it.
    - lenerdenator 3mo ago
      > So of course your parents want their house price to go up so they can pay higher taxes while surrounded by more traffic and noise. Seems so obvious now that you say it. Good thing that my county now offers people of their age a way to abate property tax increases so that they can "stay in the home they've known for so long" or whatever the line was. Well, good for seniors. Absolutely awful for the people my age who want to buy a home, start a family, and participate in the economy in ways that those things enable. But we don't much care about those people. Anyways, thanks for clarifying things to me internet stranger.

littlexsparkee 3mo ago

The thing is homeowners benefit from denser zoning because the potential of their land is increased even if the average unit price comes down - also the amenity value of more jobs, amusements, school funding/tax base, etc in the city should show up in the price too.

tptacek 3mo ago
Homeowners definitely do not believe that their home prices benefit from denser zoning. (I'm a housing activist, very close to killing off SFZ in my muni, knock wood).
- bombcar 3mo ago
  Homeowners care less about their house prices than people realize - it's just a convenient excuse. Most homeowners just don't want things to change.
  - tptacek 3mo ago
    I've spent kind of a lot of time talking directly to homeowners, and while I agree a general fear of change is one of the first principal components of this problem, housing price loss aversion is definitely a real thing.
    - bombcar 3mo ago
      Most people don't like loss ( | || || |_ ) but rarely is it really a case of potential loss (unless "density increase" is code for "build a maximum security prison next door") - it's just a case of slower appreciation.
    - tzs 3mo ago
      I don't care much about price loss if it is happening everywhere, so if I ever want to move to another region selling my house here will pay for one there.

the_gastropod 3mo ago

Yeeep. It feels like one of those “holding a wolf by the ears” situations. I don’t know how we get out of this mess. One especially frustrating part of it is that it really benefits nobody. Your home goes up in value, cool. You owe more property taxes. And all the other homes around you also go up in value, so… you’re really no better off unless you downsize or move to a cheaper housing market. Something akin to Georgism seems like the correct answer. But how you get there from here? Beats me!

john01dav 3mo ago
One option is to get home prices to stop rising faster than wages by having wage growth speed up while real estate value growth slows down (not necessarily becoming negative). Then, no one is underwater on their mortgage, but buying a house becomes more accessible year over year. Of course, you'll need to eventually stop to address the normal problems with deflation, or address those in some other way. What specific policies achieve this is also a separate question.
littlexsparkee 3mo ago
I don't see how home values could hold up with white collar work threatened over the coming years. Anyone's guess as to the timing but tech is aiming at this full force - what else has equivalent TAM? It's too big a prize to discount in the longterm.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]

Danox 3mo ago

All of the English speaking capitalistic countries are suffering from the same problem the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand. Housing un affordability for the next generation coming up, starter homes in California are easily at least 500,000 the old two bedroom one car garage starter house I grew up in cost $550,000 today built in the 1925. There is no way anyone in the surrounding area for the most part make enough money to afford to buy it today. The one thing that is going up all over the place across the country are those so-called luxury apartments which cost an arm and a leg even for a one bedroom studio, the one thing that is interesting or ironic. The only reason I can afford to buy anything is because relatively late in life bought as many shares of Apple computer as I could about 21 years ago. Anyone coming up between 18 and 30 are in trouble unless their family is relatively well off and can help them.

nunez 3mo ago
Luxury apartments are BS. Lived in one. Slightly above builder grade materials, stainless steel appliances (that are still cheap), Pelotons in the gym and Starbucks in the main area are cool, but the walls are still thin and shit still breaks like anywhere else.
- littlexsparkee 3mo ago
  Luxury apartment is a term of marketing, all new builds use it. The main problem is the management tends to be lackadaisical. My current place is ~5yo, has great sound isolation, but responsiveness has varied over time and teams.
thelastgallon 3mo ago
> All of the English speaking capitalistic countries are suffering from the same problem the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand. A third world country like India has costlier real estate than any of those. A 2nd rate metro has apartments in high rise buildings for $500K - $1M. Unbelievably expensive. Then there are villa communities (equivalent of single family homes, suburbs), which are even more costlier. I keep asking people how do they afford these and how will this sustain, nobody has an answer about how these are afforded but everyone thinks the growth will continue. The usual problems of mosquitoes (dengue, malaria), water problems, power outages, lifts not working, worst air quality, etc, etc .... looks like the only thing copied from western world is super costly real estate.