16 ms·

It infuriates me to no end that we are expected to put up with building design and technology from 1900 as a consequence of the obsession with "property values

by stefan_ 3mo ago

It infuriates me to no end that we are expected to put up with building design and technology from 1900 as a consequence of the obsession with "property values must go up" (notwithstanding the property) and a healthy helping of "regulations are only ever added to, everything old is forever grandfathered". Like, central ventilation is not magical unobtainable technology. Simple heat recovery even vastly improves heating costs in a way insulation never can.

sokoloff 3mo ago
What’s the alternative? Governments pass regulations and all buildings must be adapted within 12 months? 36 months? What of the buildings that don’t comply in time? Or can’t find trades to do it in time? Or we notice to our eternal shock that projects to ensure code tracking are priced at a serious premium? Or, how many improvements to code would we decide weren’t desirable because of the costs of retrofitting, so now we lose even the low slope of improvement versus today.
- mrngld 3mo ago
  This is a fairly well-trod path in economic policy circles, especially in Europe. You can either grandfather in buildings, perhaps with rules that line up with maintenance schedules anyway so that when something breaks anyway you replace it with the new standard (the HVAC world understands this well with refrigerants), or you sign yourself up for stunning, astronomical expense. Not to mention, a lot of places around the world care about the look and character of historical locations. If a structure wasn't designed for central HVAC, for example, then there's often nowhere to hide the condenser units, air handle units or the ductwork. Same with insulation -- if that exterior wall wasn't intended to have it you've got a couple options and they both hurt. Last of all, I'll mention labor. The type of skilled labor that can do any specific trade at all is relatively rare in the aftermath of the "college-or-bust" era, but the kind of labor you'd want for renovation work (fast, efficient, can tackle multiple different aspects at once without calling in different trades, and gets it right the first time to minimize disruption/call backs) is even more rare. To carry out some kind of massive renovation project at a national level even with infinite money you're talking about a generational timeframe just due to labor constraints.
- Natfan 3mo ago
  consider Japan's housing market for ideas
- Pragmata 3mo ago
  Government removes regulations and let property owners make whichever decisions they feel is best for them individually.
inglor_cz 3mo ago
A large-scale overhaul of the entire country's housing stock is not realistic for multiple reasons, including shortages of qualified people. There is a lot of old buildings out there.
blitzar 3mo ago
My home from the 1700s would have been demolished and rebuilt from scratch dozens of times if this was the reality we live in. Not everyone lives in a disposable McMansion in a gated community.
W3zzy 3mo ago
Who's talking about 1900? We have a part in the city that was built in the 1600's. These buildings have thick stone walls that are prone to condensation during the summer. It's easy to deal with when you open a window in the morning or keep the bathroom door open after showering. These buildings will have ventilation eventually but the code needs about 20 years to take full effect. Mind you that people have been living in those buildings for hundreds of years without issues but tennants these days don't seem to have the basic skill of airing their place.

by stefan_ 3mo ago

sokoloff 3mo ago

What’s the alternative? Governments pass regulations and all buildings must be adapted within 12 months? 36 months? What of the buildings that don’t comply in time? Or can’t find trades to do it in time? Or we notice to our eternal shock that projects to ensure code tracking are priced at a serious premium? Or, how many improvements to code would we decide weren’t desirable because of the costs of retrofitting, so now we lose even the low slope of improvement versus today.

mrngld 3mo ago
This is a fairly well-trod path in economic policy circles, especially in Europe. You can either grandfather in buildings, perhaps with rules that line up with maintenance schedules anyway so that when something breaks anyway you replace it with the new standard (the HVAC world understands this well with refrigerants), or you sign yourself up for stunning, astronomical expense. Not to mention, a lot of places around the world care about the look and character of historical locations. If a structure wasn't designed for central HVAC, for example, then there's often nowhere to hide the condenser units, air handle units or the ductwork. Same with insulation -- if that exterior wall wasn't intended to have it you've got a couple options and they both hurt. Last of all, I'll mention labor. The type of skilled labor that can do any specific trade at all is relatively rare in the aftermath of the "college-or-bust" era, but the kind of labor you'd want for renovation work (fast, efficient, can tackle multiple different aspects at once without calling in different trades, and gets it right the first time to minimize disruption/call backs) is even more rare. To carry out some kind of massive renovation project at a national level even with infinite money you're talking about a generational timeframe just due to labor constraints.
Natfan 3mo ago
consider Japan's housing market for ideas
Pragmata 3mo ago
Government removes regulations and let property owners make whichever decisions they feel is best for them individually.

inglor_cz 3mo ago

A large-scale overhaul of the entire country's housing stock is not realistic for multiple reasons, including shortages of qualified people. There is a lot of old buildings out there.

blitzar 3mo ago

My home from the 1700s would have been demolished and rebuilt from scratch dozens of times if this was the reality we live in. Not everyone lives in a disposable McMansion in a gated community.

W3zzy 3mo ago

Who's talking about 1900? We have a part in the city that was built in the 1600's. These buildings have thick stone walls that are prone to condensation during the summer. It's easy to deal with when you open a window in the morning or keep the bathroom door open after showering. These buildings will have ventilation eventually but the code needs about 20 years to take full effect. Mind you that people have been living in those buildings for hundreds of years without issues but tennants these days don't seem to have the basic skill of airing their place.