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Just looked up Chinese production capacity (~1700 GWh). That's orders of magnitude higher than the rest of the world. What did they do differently?
by MinimalAction 3mo ago
Just looked up Chinese production capacity (~1700 GWh). That's orders of magnitude higher than the rest of the world. What did they do differently?
- jahnu 3mo agoSomething like the IRA but started years ago. They invest and subsidise and tax-incentivise in their own industry but do use competition within their own market to weed out losers.
- hnthrow0287345 3mo agoCheaper labor, for sure
- pertymcpert 3mo agoMost of the cost of batteries is in labor? So why not outsource them out of China where labor is quite expensive vs developing countries?
- warunsl 3mo agoLabor is expensive in China?
- Yiin 3mo agonow yes, it's no longer 2005
- HDThoreaun 3mo agoCompared to their neighbors is SEA yes labor is very expensive
- handle584 3mo agoBecause no one in their right mind will work the Chinese 996-esque schedule in the 21st century, except the Chinese? They are actually importing Chinese workers to their Brazil factory, leading to the slave labor expose by Brazilian authorities [0]. They have the same trouble recruiting in Thailand, where workers have functioning unions and enjoy modern working rights, instead of 19th-early 20th century Industrial Revolution type stuff. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Brazil_working_conditions_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Brazil_working_conditions_...
- riskd 3mo agoEverything and anything that China does better than the west: It must be cheap labor.
- hnthrow0287345 3mo agoIt's not the only thing, but it's a big one
- defrost 3mo agoThe "dark" EV plants making cars aren't using any labour, let alone cheap labour. There's also that thing that made China what it is today - the USofA using China for cheap labour and a place to outsource all the dirty parts of high consumption. China's moved on, US perceptions haven't.
- nixon_why69 3mo agoThe perception gap is the assumption that cheap means dumb or low-quality. Those dark EV plants were designed and built by engineers and technicians working 996 for cheap on an hourly basis.
- defrost 3mo agoAnd this is why the US doesn't have fully automated parts in drive out EV factories?
- nixon_why69 3mo agoThe US doesn't have those because we're not even trying. China is capable of it due to the absolutely brutal grinding work culture. They're not superhuman, it's not Tony Stark building the Iron Man suit in an evening, they're smart and work extremely hard.
- myrmidon 3mo agoThey are most certainly using cheap labor to design, plan, operate and maintain those "dark" plants. Very highly automated production lines (cars) have similarly moved along the labor-price gradient in Europe (~east) during the last decades, despite language barriers: You need some engineers, electricians, constructions workers, janitors, etc regardless, and those still scale with general labor costs, even if there's no human hands in the assembly line.
- noosphr 3mo agoThey have a centrally planned economy. It's almost like the Chinese communist party is indeed made up of communists.
- zx8080 3mo ago> They have a centrally planned economy. Pre-1978, not now.
- hollerith 3mo agoNo, most investment is still done by banks controlled by the Party whose priorities are set by Beijing.
- zx8080 3mo agoIs that similar to the Fed system here in the US?
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- hollerith 3mo agoNo. Beijing instructs Chinese banks what to invest in (e.g., AI, electrical generation infrastructure). The Fed has never done that. When there is an economic downturn, e.g., the Dot Com crash in 2001, the Fed makes it easier for US banks to borrow money. When there is a lot of investment, e.g., now with all the investment in AI, the Fed makes it harder for the banks to borrow money (because the money is not needed as much because the economy is being stimulated by all the spending by the recipients of the investments into AI). Beijing does that, too, no doubt, but again they also decide for the majority of the investment money, which parts of their economy get the investment.
- nixon_why69 3mo agoIt's still 1.4 billion people, 100 million party members, and a mostly capitalist economy where nobody stops you from starting a business. Decisions get made at all levels. What's interesting is that, however you want to characterize their system, they're actually investing in a more diverse set of things than we are. Yes, AI is on the five-year plans but so are lots of other things. The US elite investors are pretty much only AI, all the time right now.
- incompatible 3mo agoThey have the culture and infrastructure to support manufacturing and research. Just so much stuff in one place.
- eggplantemoji69 3mo agoA near monopoly on rare earth mineral mining and refining certainly must play a part.
- defrost 3mo agoIt's a "near monopoly" because a bunch of engineers made a plan, stuck to it, and now have vertical integration. There's nothing preventing others from also processing concentrates (the post physical mining product). The mining aspect is hardly monopolised either - much is sourced from Australia, South America, etc. Put in an order, buy a 49% share of a resource company and now you're part of the action.
- HDThoreaun 3mo agoWell environmental regulations prevent companies from processing rare earths at economically competitive rates in many countries. Sure they could do it, but why would anyone pay 3x as much for “clean” rare earth when you can just get the Chinese stuff?
- defrost 3mo agoSure, but if anybody can truck refuse and clean sewers but only one person will actually do it, that's not really a monopoly by Kenny the toilet cleaner*, that's more like a caste system with "the unclean" over there. I'd also point out that the US has a large land area, mapped out by the USGS (below ground structures) and is capable of creating a large shallow lake area sealed off from deeper aquifers and able to be treated with neutralising agents. On the scale of the market for global battery production the additional costs for doing it right are not punitive and arguably fall under the "national security" umbrella that see magnitude larger shovelfuls of money going to defence and traditional fossil fuel industries. * https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/13140-kenny https://www.themoviedb.org/movie/13140-kenny
- thehappypm 3mo agoHow are rare earths used in batteries?
- jandrese 3mo agoThe Chinese Communist Party was willing to invest heavily to capture the solar and battery markets early on. Obama tried to counter them, but got roundly criticized for "picking favorites" and in the end the US gave away the entire industry to China.
- dyauspitr 3mo agoI wish the Democrats wholeheartedly picked favorites look at what the POS in power are doing now
- overfeed 3mo ago> What did they do differently? The Chinese government established and committed itself to a long-term renewable energy strategy in 1992.
- epistasis 3mo agoWell, a single order of magnitude... They actually prioritized strategic industries that would be useful in the future, rather than prioritizing last-generation's industries like the US did with oil and fossil fuels, which receive massive tax subsidies. Biden's IRA changed this massively for the US, and beyond just meeting our own needs for battery production, we were on track to being highly competitive.
- pstuart 3mo ago> we were on track to being highly competitive Gosh, I'm sure there was a very good, some might say even the best, reason why that is no longer the case.
- yanhangyhy 3mo agowe publish the 5 year plan and finished it... basically every time.
- phatfish 3mo agoThey were forced to invest in new energy technology because of lack of oil/gas reserves. The US was on course to invest more as well (I guess the reason Musk saw the opportunity in Tesla), but then fracking happened and the US became energy independent with fossil. Add the energy industry lobbying to kill clean tech and two Trump terms.