7 ms·

The cheapest EV model Renault sells is around €20K, the cheapest BMW EV is around €65K. It's safe to say the companies are not in the market bracket, no?

alephnerd 3mo ago
They share the same OEMs, and both are following the same ex-China automotive strategy. Renault has also been thumbing China recently for undermining EU manufacturing as well [0] while China has returned to using Wolf Warrior diplomacy against Europe [1][2][3][4] using the same rhetoric that the Trump admin uses. Of course, under the Xi admin China's foreign policy has always viewed the EU as inferior and a has-been [5] and has become an active participant in the Ukraine War [6][7]. Europe might not be able to trust the US, but it can't trust China either. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/renault-ceo-asks-eu-encourage-chinese-car-makers-source-parts-europe-2026-06-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/renault-ceo-asks-eu-enco... [1] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1361926.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1361926.shtml [2] - https://www.chinausfocus.com/finance-economy/dear-brussels-dont-blame-beijing https://www.chinausfocus.com/finance-economy/dear-brussels-d... [3] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362161.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362161.shtml [4] - http://news.china.com.cn/2026-06/10/content_118541873.shtml http://news.china.com.cn/2026-06/10/content_118541873.shtml [5] - https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.htm https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.ht... [6] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-covertly-trained-by-china-return-fight-ukraine-sources-say-2026-05-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-... [7] - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/12/8039041/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/12/8039041/
- criticalfault 3mo ago
  only replying to the first link: isn't sourcing (buying or manufacturing locally) parts for Chinese cars made in Europe a good thing?
  - alephnerd 3mo ago
    It is, but the PRC has been pushing back against sourcing from within Europe and only intends to use CDKs to assemble EVs. This is what the EU is pushing back against. What EU states are now lobbying for is if BYD wants to sell an EV in the EU, it should include European originated parts. Just assembling a knockdown kit in Hungary whose parts were all manufactured in China is not "Made in Europe". If BYD or MG wants to sell a BYD or MG car in the EU, they should source the battery pack and powertrain from the EU. Alternatively, the PRC can drop similar origination requirements from it's domestic market. The reality is the PRC won't back down, so they will be tariffed by the EU, especially as the EU has lost patience with the PRC due to their active involvement in the Russia-Ukraine War [0], attempting to use diplomatic immunity to kidnap a French national [1], and attempting to embargo the EU's rare earth imports [2]. Additionally, it's easier for the EU to push back against China versus the US while also winning brownie points in the US. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-covertly-trained-by-china-return-fight-ukraine-sources-say-2026-05-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-... [1] - https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/07/02/deux-espions-chinois-pries-de-quitter-la-france-apres-la-tentative-de-rapatriement-force-d-un-ressortissant_6246161_3224.html https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/07/02/deux-espio... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-export-controls-push-european-firms-move-supply-chains-2025-12-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...
    - w4der 3mo ago
      > Alternatively, the PRC can drop similar origination requirements from it's domestic market. Can you share any details on this? Is something I've rarely seen discussed
- formerly_proven 3mo ago
  > following the same ex-China automotive strategy Is that why Renault EVs (R5, Twingo) are wholesale developed in China? Doesn't seem very ex-to me, more an in- type of strategy.
  - alephnerd 3mo ago
    The EV batteries are sourced from Ampere and LG (in the EU) and the EESM from Valeo (in the EU). Sharing platforms isn't something EU manufacturers are opposed to, but they do not want to be dependent on Chinese supply chains. That is the crux of ExChina, especially as the majority of an EV's value is derived from the battery and powertrain.
  - sofixa 3mo ago
    Why do you think the R5 was developed in China? Renault have been quite open about all the improvements they had to make to their processes, development centres and factories in France to make it. The Twingo was partially developed in China.
nine_k 3mo ago
It's still good to know that SOTA is further, and we can expect the more advanced designs to seep into more affordable segments.
lostlogin 3mo ago
The bit the gets me more than the sale price is servicing. BMWs have a terrible record for needing expensive repairs. I know you shouldn’t rely on anecdote, but it seems I do.
- irishcoffee 3mo ago
  If you take care of the car it’s just brake pads, tires, rotors. Pads and rotors are really simple to DIY. Tires are more expensive than like… an Elantra, but if you’re buying a 60k car you can afford 1.2k in tires… otherwise don’t buy the car. If you get into an accident or let the bmw get into disrepair via neglect, yeah it’s not cheap to clean up. Body work is expensive on any car though, and I don’t have sympathy for people who own higher-end cars and don’t take care of them, they deserve to pay the price for it.
  - scheme271 3mo ago
    It's more than that though. Any repairs due to wear and tear or whatever, ends up being really expensive. Although you can probably reduce the costs a bit if you get the non-branded OEM part or potentially the same part from another manufacturer (e.g. the toyota supra uses a lot of bmw parts so if the toyota part might be cheaper than the same bmw part).
    - irishcoffee 3mo ago
      That was my whole point actually, the wear and tear is really minimal if you get regular oil changes. Things don’t just break and need replacing. Tires, rotors, brakes, those wear out. The tires are not cheap, rotors and pads aren’t crazy expensive and super easy to DIY. What other wear and tear things are expensive?
      - sroussey 3mo ago
        After 22 years, my z4 has needed batteries and a starter. Recently, there was a problem with the engine misfiring but it was $200. LA, California
fnord77 3mo ago
same order of magnitude :)
tencentshill 3mo ago
BMW also produces Mini EVs, which start at £26,840
- bgarbiak 3mo ago
  The cheapest Minis are made by GWM in China, and are using different motors and batteries. However, comparing prices between cars nowadays is a complicated matter. BMW's iX1 and iX2 (they use the BMW EESM motors) theoretically cost about €55k, but they have been very recently available to lease for about €250 euro per month - so pretty much for the same price as the cheapest electric Renault if leased.

alephnerd 3mo ago

They share the same OEMs, and both are following the same ex-China automotive strategy. Renault has also been thumbing China recently for undermining EU manufacturing as well [0] while China has returned to using Wolf Warrior diplomacy against Europe [1][2][3][4] using the same rhetoric that the Trump admin uses. Of course, under the Xi admin China's foreign policy has always viewed the EU as inferior and a has-been [5] and has become an active participant in the Ukraine War [6][7]. Europe might not be able to trust the US, but it can't trust China either. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/renault-ceo-asks-eu-encourage-chinese-car-makers-source-parts-europe-2026-06-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/renault-ceo-asks-eu-enco... [1] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1361926.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1361926.shtml [2] - https://www.chinausfocus.com/finance-economy/dear-brussels-dont-blame-beijing https://www.chinausfocus.com/finance-economy/dear-brussels-d... [3] - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362161.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202605/1362161.shtml [4] - http://news.china.com.cn/2026-06/10/content_118541873.shtml http://news.china.com.cn/2026-06/10/content_118541873.shtml [5] - https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.htm https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.ht... [6] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-covertly-trained-by-china-return-fight-ukraine-sources-say-2026-05-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-... [7] - https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/12/8039041/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/06/12/8039041/

criticalfault 3mo ago
only replying to the first link: isn't sourcing (buying or manufacturing locally) parts for Chinese cars made in Europe a good thing?
- alephnerd 3mo ago
  It is, but the PRC has been pushing back against sourcing from within Europe and only intends to use CDKs to assemble EVs. This is what the EU is pushing back against. What EU states are now lobbying for is if BYD wants to sell an EV in the EU, it should include European originated parts. Just assembling a knockdown kit in Hungary whose parts were all manufactured in China is not "Made in Europe". If BYD or MG wants to sell a BYD or MG car in the EU, they should source the battery pack and powertrain from the EU. Alternatively, the PRC can drop similar origination requirements from it's domestic market. The reality is the PRC won't back down, so they will be tariffed by the EU, especially as the EU has lost patience with the PRC due to their active involvement in the Russia-Ukraine War [0], attempting to use diplomatic immunity to kidnap a French national [1], and attempting to embargo the EU's rare earth imports [2]. Additionally, it's easier for the EU to push back against China versus the US while also winning brownie points in the US. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-covertly-trained-by-china-return-fight-ukraine-sources-say-2026-05-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russians-... [1] - https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/07/02/deux-espions-chinois-pries-de-quitter-la-france-apres-la-tentative-de-rapatriement-force-d-un-ressortissant_6246161_3224.html https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/07/02/deux-espio... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-export-controls-push-european-firms-move-supply-chains-2025-12-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...
  - w4der 3mo ago
    > Alternatively, the PRC can drop similar origination requirements from it's domestic market. Can you share any details on this? Is something I've rarely seen discussed
formerly_proven 3mo ago
> following the same ex-China automotive strategy Is that why Renault EVs (R5, Twingo) are wholesale developed in China? Doesn't seem very ex-to me, more an in- type of strategy.
- alephnerd 3mo ago
  The EV batteries are sourced from Ampere and LG (in the EU) and the EESM from Valeo (in the EU). Sharing platforms isn't something EU manufacturers are opposed to, but they do not want to be dependent on Chinese supply chains. That is the crux of ExChina, especially as the majority of an EV's value is derived from the battery and powertrain.
- sofixa 3mo ago
  Why do you think the R5 was developed in China? Renault have been quite open about all the improvements they had to make to their processes, development centres and factories in France to make it. The Twingo was partially developed in China.

nine_k 3mo ago

It's still good to know that SOTA is further, and we can expect the more advanced designs to seep into more affordable segments.

lostlogin 3mo ago

The bit the gets me more than the sale price is servicing. BMWs have a terrible record for needing expensive repairs. I know you shouldn’t rely on anecdote, but it seems I do.

irishcoffee 3mo ago
If you take care of the car it’s just brake pads, tires, rotors. Pads and rotors are really simple to DIY. Tires are more expensive than like… an Elantra, but if you’re buying a 60k car you can afford 1.2k in tires… otherwise don’t buy the car. If you get into an accident or let the bmw get into disrepair via neglect, yeah it’s not cheap to clean up. Body work is expensive on any car though, and I don’t have sympathy for people who own higher-end cars and don’t take care of them, they deserve to pay the price for it.
- scheme271 3mo ago
  It's more than that though. Any repairs due to wear and tear or whatever, ends up being really expensive. Although you can probably reduce the costs a bit if you get the non-branded OEM part or potentially the same part from another manufacturer (e.g. the toyota supra uses a lot of bmw parts so if the toyota part might be cheaper than the same bmw part).
  - irishcoffee 3mo ago
    That was my whole point actually, the wear and tear is really minimal if you get regular oil changes. Things don’t just break and need replacing. Tires, rotors, brakes, those wear out. The tires are not cheap, rotors and pads aren’t crazy expensive and super easy to DIY. What other wear and tear things are expensive?
    - sroussey 3mo ago
      After 22 years, my z4 has needed batteries and a starter. Recently, there was a problem with the engine misfiring but it was $200. LA, California

fnord77 3mo ago

same order of magnitude :)

tencentshill 3mo ago

BMW also produces Mini EVs, which start at £26,840

bgarbiak 3mo ago
The cheapest Minis are made by GWM in China, and are using different motors and batteries. However, comparing prices between cars nowadays is a complicated matter. BMW's iX1 and iX2 (they use the BMW EESM motors) theoretically cost about €55k, but they have been very recently available to lease for about €250 euro per month - so pretty much for the same price as the cheapest electric Renault if leased.