7 ms·

We've known this since the Snowden leaks 13 years ago. In a couple of years there will probably be a president in the US that will be more palatable for the eur

by EdiX 3mo ago

We've known this since the Snowden leaks 13 years ago. In a couple of years there will probably be a president in the US that will be more palatable for the european political class and we'll all be able to go back to pretending this doesn't happen. After all the EU is too compromised energetically, militarily, industrially, burocratically and democratically to ever achieve independence. Talking about digital sovereignty as we ban construction of new datacenter is just too cute. This is all just political theater as we peacefully sunset into a museum continent.

graemep 3mo ago
Downvotes for stating a reasonable, and probably correct argument. Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world. The UK is a bit of an exception in being aware of it and actually talking about it. That is about it.
- lava_pidgeon 3mo ago
  "Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world." I disagree on this broad statement.
  - graemep 3mo ago
    Why? I see statements like this as evidence of denial - the same with the downvotes. No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong". Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline? Shooting the messenger is just another sign of being in denial.
    - saulapremium 3mo ago
      >No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong". You presented no argument yourself, just a broad "denial". Which is, as GP said, is wrong. I am sure plenty of people are in denial but plenty are well aware of the real situation and doing things about it.
    - snowpid 3mo ago
      " Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline? " Yes and most of my friends are aware. It isnt a big problem because Quality of Life is still very fine. So present your arguments. How are people in denial?
- usrnm 3mo ago
  Well, Russia is trying to do something about it and I think we can all agree that there are wrong ways to go about it. Simply being incompetent, like the EU, is not the worst possible scenario. Btw, say what you will about Russia, but it's light years ahead of the EU in digital sovereignty. One of the reasons it did not crumble under sanctions.
- vrganj 3mo ago
  The EU in just the past year has signed deals with Latin America and India in addition to the already existing ones with South Korea, Canada, Japan etc. It has positioned itself at the center of the world's largest free trade zone. It's managed to replace US contributions to Ukraine and looks like its in the process of bloodying Russia's nose. Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.
  - EdiX 3mo ago
    Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. And the india's deal is saddling us with more third world immigration that will only make things worse. It seems to me that this is still all the EU not keeping up with where the world is going. We started drafting the mercosur agreement 27 years ago so we finalize it and call it a victory, all that it's probably going to do is precipitate the demise of our domestic agribusiness, so that farmers won't be able to cause a ruckus in Brussels anymore.
    - kergonath 3mo ago
      > Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. We do not need China to be a democracy. That’s a matter for the Chinese people. Imposing a form of government from outside rarely works and is really counter-productive most of the time.
      - EdiX 3mo ago
        The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies. If it doesn't do that, why are we doing it? We're just making ourselves dependent on dangerous dicators while simultaneously enriching them.
        Epa095 3mo ago
        The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies. No, it's truly not. Yes, for some time it was said (and probably believed) that free trade, capitalism, and democracy were all mutually dependent. But that has turned out to be false. But the reason for free trade is economy, and that it in theory makes everyone richer (but not necessarily free). In reality things are more complicated, both in term of strategic dependency, and distribution of the increased wealth. But economy is the answer to your question.
- koonsolo 3mo ago
  We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example. Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted. Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe. We have to step up our game for sure, and everyone in Europe knows it. But the race is definitely not lost yet.
  - graemep 3mo ago
    Making progress how? High economic growth? No. An effective military? Nothing compared to the 1980s. The UK's defence minister resigned today because of the prime minister's refusal to adequately fund defence.
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
    - koonsolo 3mo ago
      Europe is making big investments in military, there is no denying it. And comparing to the 1980's? Maybe look at how the borders have shifted since the 1980's, and then we'll talk again about how Western Europe is "declining". All those USSR satellite states and plenty of SSR's are now part of us, or want to be part of us. I agree we don't have high economic growth, mainly an issue with scaleups and regulation. There are also plenty of initiatives there, like EU Inc. We are waking up, so claiming that we are sleeping at the wheel is plain false.
  - Ray20 3mo ago
    > We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. It doesn't seems like this. It hasn't even been ten years since Europeans ridiculed Trump for making such calls, and it doesn't look like anything has changed. > Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted. Why do you think access to the European market is so critical? > Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe. Ukraine is a deindustrialized country, corrupt at every level. Their experience is worth little, and if you think they understand what a drone warfare is, wait until you see China in action, which has thousands of times more capable engineers and can produce drones that are better, ten times cheaper, and in tens of thousands times greater volume.
Havoc 3mo ago
I don’t think that trust is coming back with a simple president swap.
- postsantum 3mo ago
  People still refusing to notice policies don't really change with presidents
poetaster 3mo ago
A museum country like Germany manages to have a larger automitive manufacturer than Ford.

by EdiX 3mo ago

graemep 3mo ago

Downvotes for stating a reasonable, and probably correct argument. Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world. The UK is a bit of an exception in being aware of it and actually talking about it. That is about it.

lava_pidgeon 3mo ago
"Europe's biggest problem (I do not mean just the EU, I mean everyone from the UK to Russia) is that it is in denial about its decline, weakness and irrelevance to the rest of the world." I disagree on this broad statement.
- graemep 3mo ago
  Why? I see statements like this as evidence of denial - the same with the downvotes. No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong". Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline? Shooting the messenger is just another sign of being in denial.
  - saulapremium 3mo ago
    >No real counter argument, no evidence, just - "you are wrong". You presented no argument yourself, just a broad "denial". Which is, as GP said, is wrong. I am sure plenty of people are in denial but plenty are well aware of the real situation and doing things about it.
  - snowpid 3mo ago
    " Europe is relatively a much smaller fraction of the global economy or population than it was a few decades ago. It is militarily less significant. How is that not a decline? " Yes and most of my friends are aware. It isnt a big problem because Quality of Life is still very fine. So present your arguments. How are people in denial?
usrnm 3mo ago
Well, Russia is trying to do something about it and I think we can all agree that there are wrong ways to go about it. Simply being incompetent, like the EU, is not the worst possible scenario. Btw, say what you will about Russia, but it's light years ahead of the EU in digital sovereignty. One of the reasons it did not crumble under sanctions.
vrganj 3mo ago
The EU in just the past year has signed deals with Latin America and India in addition to the already existing ones with South Korea, Canada, Japan etc. It has positioned itself at the center of the world's largest free trade zone. It's managed to replace US contributions to Ukraine and looks like its in the process of bloodying Russia's nose. Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.
- EdiX 3mo ago
  Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. And the india's deal is saddling us with more third world immigration that will only make things worse. It seems to me that this is still all the EU not keeping up with where the world is going. We started drafting the mercosur agreement 27 years ago so we finalize it and call it a victory, all that it's probably going to do is precipitate the demise of our domestic agribusiness, so that farmers won't be able to cause a ruckus in Brussels anymore.
  - kergonath 3mo ago
    > Free trade didn't stop Russia from invading Ukraine and it didn't convert China into a democracy. We do not need China to be a democracy. That’s a matter for the Chinese people. Imposing a form of government from outside rarely works and is really counter-productive most of the time.
    - EdiX 3mo ago
      The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies. If it doesn't do that, why are we doing it? We're just making ourselves dependent on dangerous dicators while simultaneously enriching them.
      - Epa095 3mo ago
        The point of all this free trade ideology is that it would make the whole world into peaceful liberal democracies. No, it's truly not. Yes, for some time it was said (and probably believed) that free trade, capitalism, and democracy were all mutually dependent. But that has turned out to be false. But the reason for free trade is economy, and that it in theory makes everyone richer (but not necessarily free). In reality things are more complicated, both in term of strategic dependency, and distribution of the increased wealth. But economy is the answer to your question.
koonsolo 3mo ago
We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. I would say we are making progress on both. China is not happy with recent EU decision for example. Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted. Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe. We have to step up our game for sure, and everyone in Europe knows it. But the race is definitely not lost yet.
- graemep 3mo ago
  Making progress how? High economic growth? No. An effective military? Nothing compared to the 1980s. The UK's defence minister resigned today because of the prime minister's refusal to adequately fund defence.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - koonsolo 3mo ago
    Europe is making big investments in military, there is no denying it. And comparing to the 1980's? Maybe look at how the borders have shifted since the 1980's, and then we'll talk again about how Western Europe is "declining". All those USSR satellite states and plenty of SSR's are now part of us, or want to be part of us. I agree we don't have high economic growth, mainly an issue with scaleups and regulation. There are also plenty of initiatives there, like EU Inc. We are waking up, so claiming that we are sleeping at the wheel is plain false.
- Ray20 3mo ago
  > We Europeans are very well aware that we need to strengthen our position in the world, both economically and militarily. It doesn't seems like this. It hasn't even been ten years since Europeans ridiculed Trump for making such calls, and it doesn't look like anything has changed. > Let's see how far China and US will go when access to the European consumer market will be resticted. Why do you think access to the European market is so critical? > Let's see how well China and US can adapt to modern drone warfare when Ukrainians have the expertise and can share it with the rest of Europe. Ukraine is a deindustrialized country, corrupt at every level. Their experience is worth little, and if you think they understand what a drone warfare is, wait until you see China in action, which has thousands of times more capable engineers and can produce drones that are better, ten times cheaper, and in tens of thousands times greater volume.

Havoc 3mo ago

I don’t think that trust is coming back with a simple president swap.

postsantum 3mo ago
People still refusing to notice policies don't really change with presidents

poetaster 3mo ago

A museum country like Germany manages to have a larger automitive manufacturer than Ford.