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We either have freedom or speech: sending any data to anyone or we do not. "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." -- Benjamin Franklin I c

We either have freedom or speech: sending any data to anyone or we do not. "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." -- Benjamin Franklin I choose freedom.

DanBC 14y ago
You don't have freedom of speech. You don't have freedom of speech in the US and you certainly don't have it in Austria.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  What does the reality of what freedoms we actually enjoy have to do with what freedoms we should expect others to demand? I may not have freedom of speech in the US, but I sure as hell can demand it. I expect to be given that freedom, even though I do not expect that will ever happen.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    > What does the reality [...] People have a choice. A person can demand freedoms while obeying existing laws, or they can ignore existing laws and demand freedoms while they're in jail. Absolutist freedom of speech is not, even in the US, something that everyone wants. Most people are reasonably comfortable with governments restricting access to some items. The list of items and the amount of resistance varies, but restricting speech by preventing people distributing images of child sexual abuse is pretty much established.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      I believe you are mischaracterizing the concerns people actually have. I am not particularly concerned about the absolute rights of pedophiles, but I am concerned by what I perceive to be the abridgement of the rights of innocents for the purpose of pursuing the distasteful elements of society. Law enforcement becomes much much easier when you are willing to inflict collateral damage. Uncompromising voices of opposition to that are a welcome foil to those who would see no end to the powers of authorities.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    > What does the reality [...] People have a choice. A person can demand freedoms while obeying existing laws, or they can ignore existing laws and demand freedoms while they're in jail. Absolutist freedom of speech is not, even in the US, something that everyone wants. Most people are reasonably comfortable with governments restricting access to some items. The list of items and the amount of resistance varies, but restricting speech by preventing people distributing images of child sexual abuse is pretty much established.
jrabone 14y ago
I believe the quote is "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.", and it's not clear what essential liberty is being compromised here.
- e12e 14y ago
  Yes, as Franklin. But earlier under the alias Poor Richard, it went: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin I've always found it oddly fascinating that that was originally published under an alias.
- sneak 14y ago
  From the Supreme Court ruling excerpted at https://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity https://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity : > Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.
  - jessedhillon 14y ago
    In what democratic discourse are child porn traders engaged in? Protest over age-of-consent laws? The idea that some particular speech is protected in the interests of democracy does not mean that all speech is in the democratic interest.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Right, because facilitating that is the only reason someone might want to operate a Tor exit node.... The relationship between speech, particularly political speech if the distinction matters to you, and Tor should be plain.
ahelwer 14y ago
As is said on other parts of the Internet, SO BRAVE. Absolutism on this issue is nothing more than intellectual cowardice. Turning the other cheek.

We either have freedom or speech: sending any data to anyone or we do not. "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." -- Benjamin Franklin I choose freedom.

DanBC 14y ago

You don't have freedom of speech. You don't have freedom of speech in the US and you certainly don't have it in Austria.

jlgreco 14y ago
What does the reality of what freedoms we actually enjoy have to do with what freedoms we should expect others to demand? I may not have freedom of speech in the US, but I sure as hell can demand it. I expect to be given that freedom, even though I do not expect that will ever happen.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > What does the reality [...] People have a choice. A person can demand freedoms while obeying existing laws, or they can ignore existing laws and demand freedoms while they're in jail. Absolutist freedom of speech is not, even in the US, something that everyone wants. Most people are reasonably comfortable with governments restricting access to some items. The list of items and the amount of resistance varies, but restricting speech by preventing people distributing images of child sexual abuse is pretty much established.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I believe you are mischaracterizing the concerns people actually have. I am not particularly concerned about the absolute rights of pedophiles, but I am concerned by what I perceive to be the abridgement of the rights of innocents for the purpose of pursuing the distasteful elements of society. Law enforcement becomes much much easier when you are willing to inflict collateral damage. Uncompromising voices of opposition to that are a welcome foil to those who would see no end to the powers of authorities.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > What does the reality [...] People have a choice. A person can demand freedoms while obeying existing laws, or they can ignore existing laws and demand freedoms while they're in jail. Absolutist freedom of speech is not, even in the US, something that everyone wants. Most people are reasonably comfortable with governments restricting access to some items. The list of items and the amount of resistance varies, but restricting speech by preventing people distributing images of child sexual abuse is pretty much established.

jrabone 14y ago

I believe the quote is "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.", and it's not clear what essential liberty is being compromised here.

e12e 14y ago
Yes, as Franklin. But earlier under the alias Poor Richard, it went: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin I've always found it oddly fascinating that that was originally published under an alias.
sneak 14y ago
From the Supreme Court ruling excerpted at https://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity https://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity : > Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  In what democratic discourse are child porn traders engaged in? Protest over age-of-consent laws? The idea that some particular speech is protected in the interests of democracy does not mean that all speech is in the democratic interest.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Right, because facilitating that is the only reason someone might want to operate a Tor exit node.... The relationship between speech, particularly political speech if the distinction matters to you, and Tor should be plain.

ahelwer 14y ago

As is said on other parts of the Internet, SO BRAVE. Absolutism on this issue is nothing more than intellectual cowardice. Turning the other cheek.