6 ms·

speaking about defending ourselves: there's a huge gap between "willing to defend" and "actually be able to defend" ourselves

CarlitosHighway 3mo ago
But we're now spending and working on this gap like crazy.
- 4gotunameagain 3mo ago
  And we will end up using those weapons against eachother, again. As if we haven't seen that film before. Or even worse, keep selling them to Israel as Germany is doing, because one genocide was not enough and two wrongs make a right.
  - x3ro 3mo ago
    I don't understand why this is being downvoted. It's not unreasonable to assume that increased militarization, coupled with increased nationalistic sentiment, could lead to inner-european conflicts escalating into wars. Sure, right now Russia is the enemy, but who knows what'll happen in ten years. And the military machinery is not just going to be scaled down immediately. If he's being downvoted for his "selling weapons to Israel" comment, I just want to highlight that even a majority of Germans is against it, with 80% not wanting to send weapons [1]. Of course there are different polls, and others find that "only" 30% say "stop them", plus another 43% saying "limit them [2]. Either way, only a small minority is pro "send all the weapons". [1]: https://www.plan.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/detail/80-prozent-der-deutschen-fordern-einen-stopp-der-waffenlieferungen-an-israel.html https://www.plan.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/detail/80-proz... [2]: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1615302/umfrage/umfrage-zu-deutschen-waffenexporte-nach-israel/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1615302/umfra...
    - chatmasta 3mo ago
      Follow the Yugoslavia model and ship soldiers from each country to live and work with each other in their first years in military service. Then again… Yugoslavia maybe not the best example here…
    - roenxi 3mo ago
      > I don't understand why this is being downvoted. Wars and military matters are literally life and death. I try not to speculate about downvotes, but here I expect there are people who are primed to get quite emotional when someone tells them they shouldn't start arming up.
    - snowpid 3mo ago
      [flagged]
      - 4gotunameagain 3mo ago
        Oh so the UN is a huge red flag now ? Have you seen before & after photos of Gaza ? Have you watched documentaries about the lives of Palestineans inside Israel ? If you have a shred of humanity left in you you should oppose zionism and the religious fundamentalist state that Israel has become with every fibre of your being.
        throw47931 3mo ago
        If this was about humanity you would oppose suffering and violence on both sides and strive for a solution that involves all the humans in that region living in peace and harmony. Having extreme hatred for one side is exactly what perpetuates the cycle and doesn’t make you a good person.
        snowpid 3mo ago
        Thanks! I only would consider people worthy to discuss if they are agree on this. Most of the time people dont.
        4gotunameagain 3mo ago
        I do not harbour hatred for any arbitrary collective group of humans, only for the actions of states and organisations which I perceive as the perpetrators and perpetuators of the cycles of violence. Israel has both the power and the means to stop this. But not the will. If they stopped expansionism, settling, and the embargo of Palestinian territories, violence would decrease over time. Occupying more land and razing cities to the ground does the exact opposite.
        throw47931 3mo ago
        You are repeating tropes that are totally irrational if you look at the facts yourself. Can you tell me by how many square miles Israel has expanded since 1970? It actually shrank by more than 50% They completely withdrew from Lebanon and were subsequently attacked by Hezbollah. They withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans elected Hamas. Just open Google maps and zoom out until you can see all the Muslim countries, Israel is barely a visible speck. It’s like 2% the size of Egypt and 1% the size of Iran - and that has not significantly changed in more than 50 years.
shevy-java 3mo ago
I guess nobody disagrees that Europe needs to have a better footing with regards to both production and employment. But is there a real political will? It would require a nuclear arsenal and I don't really see many countries in the EU wanting to go that way. The only one who seem to want to go that route are Poland, and they know WHY they want nukes - see the history they have with Russia.
- pjc50 3mo ago
  France has an independent nuclear deterrent. I dunno, for decades the policy by most of the West has been (a) keep Germany from re-arming in case they start WW3 and (b) discourage nuclear proliferation by anyone, and now because the Americans have thrown security out the window in exchange for freedom to bully, we have to reverse course on both of those?
  - brazzy 3mo ago
    > I dunno, for decades the policy by most of the West has been (a) keep Germany from re-arming in case they start WW3 That policy lasted less than a single decade. Germany was encouraged to re-arm as soon as 1950 inofficially and 1955 officially.
    - arethuza 3mo ago
      And I think even before 1950 there was a feeling, particularly in the US, that it was good to have the Germans on-side in a military conflict due to their recent experience fighting the Soviets.
- mschild 3mo ago
  France and UK have a nuclear arsenal. France specifically has said they are willing to extend their policy to cover other EU countries. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4zlnezrl7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4zlnezrl7o
  - arethuza 3mo ago
mrtksn 3mo ago
Those are not different things, "willing to defend" is just the prerequisite of "actually be able to defend". Look at Ukraine, how weak they were and how good they defended themselves. Look at Iran, how resilient they are despite decades of sanctions and their shitty regime. When things start moving people can move mountains, suddenly the unemployment goes to %0 like it happened with Russia, market forces get dominated by state forces, moats like network effect or IP go to the trash.
- junaru 3mo ago
  > Look at Ukraine, how weak they were and how good they defended themselves. How can you type such nonsense? Look at 2014 Crimean annexation - thats "how good they defended themselves" without western training and billions in weapon aid. After four years they have million plus dead but "this is fine" for the west.
  - mrtksn 3mo ago
    There was no fight in Crimea, Russians rented a base there and one day decided not to extend the rental agreement and that they own Crimea now. Most of the Ukrainian soldiers switched sides and joined Russia and it was over without a bullet fired. So US may decide that they now own Germany because they have the Ramstein Air base but I don't think it will go as smoothly. There are old videos from the time on Youtube, check it out.
  - rob74 3mo ago
    [citation needed] - if I look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain..., the only source that says that there are more than 1 million killed and wounded (!) Ukrainian soldiers is the Russian Ministry of Defense, which I wouldn't consider very trustworthy...
    - junaru 3mo ago
      Fair. I stand corrected. First casualty of war is always the truth so both sides will lie.
scihuber 3mo ago
Psychologically, becoming a soldier will be difficult for everyone; if Russia launches an offensive against the EU, the regular army alone will not be enough.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3mo ago
  Yeah that Schrodinger Russia again: it is being stuck for years, unable to take some small village in Donetsk region, and simultaneously is a grave threat that looms over Europe, ready to quickly overrun their capital cities.
  - scihuber 3mo ago
    It’s not that Russia is strong because of its economy or its military. The point is that it is strong like a criminal, a mugger with a knife on the streets of Frankfurt. Or, if you will, a pigeon playing chess with you—it will scatter all the pieces and defecate on the board, then strut around like a winner with its chest puffed out. That’s Russia for you; it will simply use the dirtiest tactics that Europeans aren’t used to. Also look at the EU’s military exercises—the soldiers aren’t really ready for drone attacks yet.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 3mo ago
      Thank you for proving my point. Great example of double-think!
    - vkou 3mo ago
      > it will simply use the dirtiest tactics that Europeans aren’t used to. In 21st century warfare, what exactly is considered a 'dirty', and what is considered an 'honorable' tactic? Is there an objective definition?
  - Markoff 3mo ago
    Yup, they still haven't run out of those washing machine chips they use, Russia must be washing machine superpower. ...at least if you believe EU/UA propaganda. It's funny how they yesterday or day before yesterday annouced 21st round of Russian sanctions. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Imagine you are so dumb, you do it 21 times and expect voters will take yous eriously and keep supporting if they paid it 21 times from their own wallets.
Markoff 3mo ago
By defending ourselves you mean defending my own family or being some pawn in politicians game dying for their wishes? I am willing to defend my family. I am certainly not even willing to defend ANY country just because local politicians are afraid of incoming new management, no matter whether it's my home country or country where I currently reside, I have no allegiance to any country, only to my family. Sadly majority of people are brainwashed, if there were more people like me there would be zero wars, just local crimes.
- tim333 3mo ago
  The history of not defending against incoming new management is not good for zero wars - google Sudetenland for example. If you want zero wars you're probably better being like Switzerland - defend your own country but don't go fighting abroad.
  - t0bia_s 3mo ago
    Incoming new management works only because some willing to fight for greater good, safety... whatever establishment propagate. Not sure why you mention Sudetland?
    - tim333 3mo ago
      It was an area they let Hitler effectively occupy without going to war. The Donetsk People's Republic of its day. Not fighting over that only delayed the main war a little.
      - t0bia_s 3mo ago
        Fighting over that might kill my grandparents.

CarlitosHighway 3mo ago

But we're now spending and working on this gap like crazy.

4gotunameagain 3mo ago
And we will end up using those weapons against eachother, again. As if we haven't seen that film before. Or even worse, keep selling them to Israel as Germany is doing, because one genocide was not enough and two wrongs make a right.
- x3ro 3mo ago
  I don't understand why this is being downvoted. It's not unreasonable to assume that increased militarization, coupled with increased nationalistic sentiment, could lead to inner-european conflicts escalating into wars. Sure, right now Russia is the enemy, but who knows what'll happen in ten years. And the military machinery is not just going to be scaled down immediately. If he's being downvoted for his "selling weapons to Israel" comment, I just want to highlight that even a majority of Germans is against it, with 80% not wanting to send weapons [1]. Of course there are different polls, and others find that "only" 30% say "stop them", plus another 43% saying "limit them [2]. Either way, only a small minority is pro "send all the weapons". [1]: https://www.plan.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/detail/80-prozent-der-deutschen-fordern-einen-stopp-der-waffenlieferungen-an-israel.html https://www.plan.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/detail/80-proz... [2]: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1615302/umfrage/umfrage-zu-deutschen-waffenexporte-nach-israel/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1615302/umfra...
  - chatmasta 3mo ago
    Follow the Yugoslavia model and ship soldiers from each country to live and work with each other in their first years in military service. Then again… Yugoslavia maybe not the best example here…
  - roenxi 3mo ago
    > I don't understand why this is being downvoted. Wars and military matters are literally life and death. I try not to speculate about downvotes, but here I expect there are people who are primed to get quite emotional when someone tells them they shouldn't start arming up.
  - snowpid 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - 4gotunameagain 3mo ago
      Oh so the UN is a huge red flag now ? Have you seen before & after photos of Gaza ? Have you watched documentaries about the lives of Palestineans inside Israel ? If you have a shred of humanity left in you you should oppose zionism and the religious fundamentalist state that Israel has become with every fibre of your being.
      - throw47931 3mo ago
        If this was about humanity you would oppose suffering and violence on both sides and strive for a solution that involves all the humans in that region living in peace and harmony. Having extreme hatred for one side is exactly what perpetuates the cycle and doesn’t make you a good person.
        snowpid 3mo ago
        Thanks! I only would consider people worthy to discuss if they are agree on this. Most of the time people dont.
        4gotunameagain 3mo ago
        I do not harbour hatred for any arbitrary collective group of humans, only for the actions of states and organisations which I perceive as the perpetrators and perpetuators of the cycles of violence. Israel has both the power and the means to stop this. But not the will. If they stopped expansionism, settling, and the embargo of Palestinian territories, violence would decrease over time. Occupying more land and razing cities to the ground does the exact opposite.
        throw47931 3mo ago
        You are repeating tropes that are totally irrational if you look at the facts yourself. Can you tell me by how many square miles Israel has expanded since 1970? It actually shrank by more than 50% They completely withdrew from Lebanon and were subsequently attacked by Hezbollah. They withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans elected Hamas. Just open Google maps and zoom out until you can see all the Muslim countries, Israel is barely a visible speck. It’s like 2% the size of Egypt and 1% the size of Iran - and that has not significantly changed in more than 50 years.

shevy-java 3mo ago

I guess nobody disagrees that Europe needs to have a better footing with regards to both production and employment. But is there a real political will? It would require a nuclear arsenal and I don't really see many countries in the EU wanting to go that way. The only one who seem to want to go that route are Poland, and they know WHY they want nukes - see the history they have with Russia.

pjc50 3mo ago
France has an independent nuclear deterrent. I dunno, for decades the policy by most of the West has been (a) keep Germany from re-arming in case they start WW3 and (b) discourage nuclear proliferation by anyone, and now because the Americans have thrown security out the window in exchange for freedom to bully, we have to reverse course on both of those?
- brazzy 3mo ago
  > I dunno, for decades the policy by most of the West has been (a) keep Germany from re-arming in case they start WW3 That policy lasted less than a single decade. Germany was encouraged to re-arm as soon as 1950 inofficially and 1955 officially.
  - arethuza 3mo ago
    And I think even before 1950 there was a feeling, particularly in the US, that it was good to have the Germans on-side in a military conflict due to their recent experience fighting the Soviets.
mschild 3mo ago
France and UK have a nuclear arsenal. France specifically has said they are willing to extend their policy to cover other EU countries. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4zlnezrl7o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4zlnezrl7o
- arethuza 3mo ago

mrtksn 3mo ago

Those are not different things, "willing to defend" is just the prerequisite of "actually be able to defend". Look at Ukraine, how weak they were and how good they defended themselves. Look at Iran, how resilient they are despite decades of sanctions and their shitty regime. When things start moving people can move mountains, suddenly the unemployment goes to %0 like it happened with Russia, market forces get dominated by state forces, moats like network effect or IP go to the trash.

junaru 3mo ago
> Look at Ukraine, how weak they were and how good they defended themselves. How can you type such nonsense? Look at 2014 Crimean annexation - thats "how good they defended themselves" without western training and billions in weapon aid. After four years they have million plus dead but "this is fine" for the west.
- mrtksn 3mo ago
  There was no fight in Crimea, Russians rented a base there and one day decided not to extend the rental agreement and that they own Crimea now. Most of the Ukrainian soldiers switched sides and joined Russia and it was over without a bullet fired. So US may decide that they now own Germany because they have the Ramstein Air base but I don't think it will go as smoothly. There are old videos from the time on Youtube, check it out.
- rob74 3mo ago
  [citation needed] - if I look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain..., the only source that says that there are more than 1 million killed and wounded (!) Ukrainian soldiers is the Russian Ministry of Defense, which I wouldn't consider very trustworthy...
  - junaru 3mo ago
    Fair. I stand corrected. First casualty of war is always the truth so both sides will lie.

scihuber 3mo ago

Psychologically, becoming a soldier will be difficult for everyone; if Russia launches an offensive against the EU, the regular army alone will not be enough.

Andrew_nenakhov 3mo ago
Yeah that Schrodinger Russia again: it is being stuck for years, unable to take some small village in Donetsk region, and simultaneously is a grave threat that looms over Europe, ready to quickly overrun their capital cities.
- scihuber 3mo ago
  It’s not that Russia is strong because of its economy or its military. The point is that it is strong like a criminal, a mugger with a knife on the streets of Frankfurt. Or, if you will, a pigeon playing chess with you—it will scatter all the pieces and defecate on the board, then strut around like a winner with its chest puffed out. That’s Russia for you; it will simply use the dirtiest tactics that Europeans aren’t used to. Also look at the EU’s military exercises—the soldiers aren’t really ready for drone attacks yet.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3mo ago
    Thank you for proving my point. Great example of double-think!
  - vkou 3mo ago
    > it will simply use the dirtiest tactics that Europeans aren’t used to. In 21st century warfare, what exactly is considered a 'dirty', and what is considered an 'honorable' tactic? Is there an objective definition?
- Markoff 3mo ago
  Yup, they still haven't run out of those washing machine chips they use, Russia must be washing machine superpower. ...at least if you believe EU/UA propaganda. It's funny how they yesterday or day before yesterday annouced 21st round of Russian sanctions. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Imagine you are so dumb, you do it 21 times and expect voters will take yous eriously and keep supporting if they paid it 21 times from their own wallets.

Markoff 3mo ago

By defending ourselves you mean defending my own family or being some pawn in politicians game dying for their wishes? I am willing to defend my family. I am certainly not even willing to defend ANY country just because local politicians are afraid of incoming new management, no matter whether it's my home country or country where I currently reside, I have no allegiance to any country, only to my family. Sadly majority of people are brainwashed, if there were more people like me there would be zero wars, just local crimes.

tim333 3mo ago
The history of not defending against incoming new management is not good for zero wars - google Sudetenland for example. If you want zero wars you're probably better being like Switzerland - defend your own country but don't go fighting abroad.
- t0bia_s 3mo ago
  Incoming new management works only because some willing to fight for greater good, safety... whatever establishment propagate. Not sure why you mention Sudetland?
  - tim333 3mo ago
    It was an area they let Hitler effectively occupy without going to war. The Donetsk People's Republic of its day. Not fighting over that only delayed the main war a little.
    - t0bia_s 3mo ago
      Fighting over that might kill my grandparents.