6 ms·

Depending on what you mean by "school" I'd disagree. Voluntary tertiary education makes sense, not all chosen professions may need or benefit from a degree. Bu

by kitchi 3mo ago

Depending on what you mean by "school" I'd disagree. Voluntary tertiary education makes sense, not all chosen professions may need or benefit from a degree. But primary education needs to be a requirement for every child. Coming from a country with a large illiterate population, it's easy to see how hard their lives are compared to folks with an education but similar socio-economic backgrounds. Now obviously implementing universal primary education and the details can be debated and need to be context specific.

BobbyTables2 3mo ago
Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Makes a lot of teacher not want to be there too! The schools also have little interest in spending time and money on the higher performing students. They teach the minimum and focus resources on the failing ones to raise school averages. Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.
- throwaway2037 3mo ago
  > Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. At what age do you think kids should be able to leave school?
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    I don't like my options. I want all kids to like school and so be there from 6 - 26 (that is get a phd). Anything else is a failure, even if it makes some kids better to get rid of other kids, it makes those kids worse.
  - peterfirefly 3mo ago
    closer to 12 than to 15.
    - SoftTalker 3mo ago
      Leaving school after 8th grade used to be pretty common. Many jobs were available for someone with an 8th grade education, or you'd start an apprenticeship.
      - throwaway2037 3mo ago
        If we are talking about the US, most (all?) states have a separate type of high school for people who plan to pursue the trades. You don't need to leave school.
- imhoguy 3mo ago
  And why they don't want to be there? This unearths more complex topic of individuality in aproximating school, because I think every kid wants and does't want different things. And these aren't limited to school material but also include social dynamics between peers or even type of chairs (ask kids with ADD spectrum).
  - redsocksfan45 3mo ago
    [dead]
- Danox 3mo ago
  The upper division has and is getting an education always has and always will and the same applies to those with money, with the screw worm fly hitting Texas of recent measles is ok fame and the current administration which is the worst in American history run by imbeciles the can do America appears to be gone and education for most along with it.
- sensanaty 3mo ago
  If it was up to me (back then), I wouldn't have even done primary school. I'd wager that the vast majority of kids wouldn't want to do school, because obviously, but that's why we don't let kids make important decisions like those for themselves. Looking back I am extremely appreciative of my time in school as much as I might've not liked it at the time, and my education has undoubtedly made me into a more intelligent and capable person in pretty much every conceivable way. Especially high school, pretty much everyone I know who's a high school dropout (and doesn't come from a wealthy family) is much worse off than their peers who finished it. As for tertiary education, that is already completely optional. I attended university for 1 year, said "This ain't for me", and things worked out just fine for me.
  - graemep 3mo ago
    > I'd wager that the vast majority of kids wouldn't want to do school, because obviously You are probably right that most kids do not want to be in school, however most kids love learning. They do not have to learn in school. Not do schools have to teach they way they do, and if they were more fun and interesting the kids would want to be there.
- kitchi 3mo ago
  > Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen. The phrase "real learning" is hard to define but I think I understand what you mean here, ie critical thinking. But this is only possible on the back of foundational literacy possible by years of primary education. > Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Kids that "don't want to be in school" need to be treated with care and shown the value of education. Not ejected out of the system to protect teachers. The kids might not want to be there for a variety of reasons, but if you've ever interacted with kids informally you'll know they are typically curious and eager to learn about the world around them. And if they aren't the reasons need to be understood and the kids would ideally be provided the care they need, although there reality is far more complex. This exception does not invalidate the basic premise of primary education, the benefits of which can be seen globally in pretty much every context.
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    > Kids that "don't want to be in school" need to be treated with care and shown the value of education. I have yet to see a suggestion on how to do that, that isn't obviously unworkable. > Not ejected out of the system to protect teachers. It is not teachers I worry about, it is the other students. Peer pressure matters and so put kids who want to be there with kids that don't and some kids will decide they don't want to either. (the reverse is also true, but there is no way to know and I wouldn't risk my kids who like school in an area where many kids don't want to be there)
    - kitchi 3mo ago
      Yep that's definitely fair, to not want to put your kids in a school which has a large population of troubled children. But to the original point I was trying to make, troubled kids don't automatically mean they don't deserve education or we should allow them to fail out or give them the option of leaving primary or secondary education. We should really be making every attempt at figuring out ways to make them stay in school, given how stark the difference in outcomes are.
- fn-mote 3mo ago
  > tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen Hilarious assertion. Absolutely false in my experience. Someone who just starts to learn in college will be years behind the students who began in high school. They probably mistake it for not “being good at” a subject, but it can really keep people away from some areas. For example, hard sciences and math, where years of training problem solving skills makes solving new problems easy. Not saying all primary/secondary education is good, but there is a massive gap between the good and the bad.
  - BobbyTables2 3mo ago
    I mean more that the elementary/secondary school years are largely wasted in terms of what could have been taught. Yes, some things are taught and sometimes learned, but only superficially. Even basic economics and financial literacy is taught way too late. These kids have been ogling phones, tablets, apps since they were in Kindergarten and then learn a few basics over a decade later? Acceleration in Physics is not a difficult concept. Yet, it’s often taught late in secondary school - 6 to 8 years after teaching fractions. Each year Math classes largely repeat the previous year with just a small extra wrinkle (except for the crazy year known as Geometry). Pre-algebra, algebra I, algebra II, advanced math, Calculus I. That’s 5 years to poorly learn lines, parabolas, and integrals — longer than an entire college education. Imagine if we taught grammar that way. All Of Elementary education would be stuck in the simple tenses! The future perfect continuous would be taught Senior year! I’m not advocating teaching Calculus in 2nd grade but I think we should be doing better.

by kitchi 3mo ago

BobbyTables2 3mo ago

Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Makes a lot of teacher not want to be there too! The schools also have little interest in spending time and money on the higher performing students. They teach the minimum and focus resources on the failing ones to raise school averages. Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen.

throwaway2037 3mo ago
> Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. At what age do you think kids should be able to leave school?
- bluGill 3mo ago
  I don't like my options. I want all kids to like school and so be there from 6 - 26 (that is get a phd). Anything else is a failure, even if it makes some kids better to get rid of other kids, it makes those kids worse.
- peterfirefly 3mo ago
  closer to 12 than to 15.
  - SoftTalker 3mo ago
    Leaving school after 8th grade used to be pretty common. Many jobs were available for someone with an 8th grade education, or you'd start an apprenticeship.
    - throwaway2037 3mo ago
      If we are talking about the US, most (all?) states have a separate type of high school for people who plan to pursue the trades. You don't need to leave school.
imhoguy 3mo ago
And why they don't want to be there? This unearths more complex topic of individuality in aproximating school, because I think every kid wants and does't want different things. And these aren't limited to school material but also include social dynamics between peers or even type of chairs (ask kids with ADD spectrum).
- redsocksfan45 3mo ago
  [dead]
Danox 3mo ago
The upper division has and is getting an education always has and always will and the same applies to those with money, with the screw worm fly hitting Texas of recent measles is ok fame and the current administration which is the worst in American history run by imbeciles the can do America appears to be gone and education for most along with it.
sensanaty 3mo ago
If it was up to me (back then), I wouldn't have even done primary school. I'd wager that the vast majority of kids wouldn't want to do school, because obviously, but that's why we don't let kids make important decisions like those for themselves. Looking back I am extremely appreciative of my time in school as much as I might've not liked it at the time, and my education has undoubtedly made me into a more intelligent and capable person in pretty much every conceivable way. Especially high school, pretty much everyone I know who's a high school dropout (and doesn't come from a wealthy family) is much worse off than their peers who finished it. As for tertiary education, that is already completely optional. I attended university for 1 year, said "This ain't for me", and things worked out just fine for me.
- graemep 3mo ago
  > I'd wager that the vast majority of kids wouldn't want to do school, because obviously You are probably right that most kids do not want to be in school, however most kids love learning. They do not have to learn in school. Not do schools have to teach they way they do, and if they were more fun and interesting the kids would want to be there.
kitchi 3mo ago
> Currently, tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen. The phrase "real learning" is hard to define but I think I understand what you mean here, ie critical thinking. But this is only possible on the back of foundational literacy possible by years of primary education. > Problem is when one mixes kids who don’t want to be there with one’s that do, they all suffer. Kids that "don't want to be in school" need to be treated with care and shown the value of education. Not ejected out of the system to protect teachers. The kids might not want to be there for a variety of reasons, but if you've ever interacted with kids informally you'll know they are typically curious and eager to learn about the world around them. And if they aren't the reasons need to be understood and the kids would ideally be provided the care they need, although there reality is far more complex. This exception does not invalidate the basic premise of primary education, the benefits of which can be seen globally in pretty much every context.
- bluGill 3mo ago
  > Kids that "don't want to be in school" need to be treated with care and shown the value of education. I have yet to see a suggestion on how to do that, that isn't obviously unworkable. > Not ejected out of the system to protect teachers. It is not teachers I worry about, it is the other students. Peer pressure matters and so put kids who want to be there with kids that don't and some kids will decide they don't want to either. (the reverse is also true, but there is no way to know and I wouldn't risk my kids who like school in an area where many kids don't want to be there)
  - kitchi 3mo ago
    Yep that's definitely fair, to not want to put your kids in a school which has a large population of troubled children. But to the original point I was trying to make, troubled kids don't automatically mean they don't deserve education or we should allow them to fail out or give them the option of leaving primary or secondary education. We should really be making every attempt at figuring out ways to make them stay in school, given how stark the difference in outcomes are.
fn-mote 3mo ago
> tertiary education is where a lot of real learning takes starts to happen Hilarious assertion. Absolutely false in my experience. Someone who just starts to learn in college will be years behind the students who began in high school. They probably mistake it for not “being good at” a subject, but it can really keep people away from some areas. For example, hard sciences and math, where years of training problem solving skills makes solving new problems easy. Not saying all primary/secondary education is good, but there is a massive gap between the good and the bad.
- BobbyTables2 3mo ago
  I mean more that the elementary/secondary school years are largely wasted in terms of what could have been taught. Yes, some things are taught and sometimes learned, but only superficially. Even basic economics and financial literacy is taught way too late. These kids have been ogling phones, tablets, apps since they were in Kindergarten and then learn a few basics over a decade later? Acceleration in Physics is not a difficult concept. Yet, it’s often taught late in secondary school - 6 to 8 years after teaching fractions. Each year Math classes largely repeat the previous year with just a small extra wrinkle (except for the crazy year known as Geometry). Pre-algebra, algebra I, algebra II, advanced math, Calculus I. That’s 5 years to poorly learn lines, parabolas, and integrals — longer than an entire college education. Imagine if we taught grammar that way. All Of Elementary education would be stuck in the simple tenses! The future perfect continuous would be taught Senior year! I’m not advocating teaching Calculus in 2nd grade but I think we should be doing better.