7 ms·

I think we need to unionize, across companies. We need to be able to block stuff like this, and to be able to demand that you can’t lay off someone to replace t

I think we need to unionize, across companies. We need to be able to block stuff like this, and to be able to demand that you can’t lay off someone to replace them with AI (bringing US workers rights up to the bar set by China). We also need to be able to hold our leadership to some kind of code of ethics. I don’t want to work for a company that makes kill bots, or can renege on climate pledges.

elevation 4mo ago
> can’t lay off someone to replace them with AI This measure would either be toothless or it would make it impossible for the most toxic (non-criminal) team members to be fired.
- bonsai_spool 4mo ago
  > or it would make it impossible for the most toxic (non-criminal) team members to be fired. The issue at present is that everyone is being laid off. If we accept this anti-union trope, let's t least accept that it is strictly better than the current situation where no job is safe.
  - mattrighetti 4mo ago
    In my native country unions have crippled the job market and most of my peers don’t see any benefit from them, we actually hate them for the most part. Unions are just another way to find a single solution that fits everyone and we all know how that turns out. They’re just be another bureaucratic institution for corrupt politicians. Tons of evidence out there, especially in EU.
    - bonsai_spool 4mo ago
      > In my native country unions have crippled the job market We have to think about this critically. If there were no unions, do you believe there would be more jobs for everyone? If so, what is happening to those jobs? What is happening to the demand that would support those jobs? I'm missing some of the logic here, so want to understand better.
    - geraneum 4mo ago
      Can you provide some concrete examples and sources?
- dietr1ch 4mo ago
  Right, let's do absolutely nothing so we can fire Joe, who's been underperforming for the last two quarters (because of healthcare issues, life affordability, lack of direction, burnout, etc).
freakynit 4mo ago
The best way to unionize is to follow what Mahatma Gandhi did: Non-cooperation movement. It consists of two broad strategies: 1. Consumer Non-Cooperation (Boycott): Boycott of stuff sold, or given by these companies, irrespective of how attractive it is. 2. The Constructive Program (Self-Reliance): Building and supporting alternatives, even if they cost you a little bit more. All it needs is little self-discipline and a very very tiny bit of sacrifice on daily basis. https://www.nextias.com/blog/non-cooperation-movement/ https://www.nextias.com/blog/non-cooperation-movement/
- dyauspitr 4mo ago
  Massive individually coordinated group actions only work is very dire circumstances which means for most everyday things they cannot be relied upon.
  - freakynit 4mo ago
    We are headed there.
- geraneum 4mo ago
  The individual self discipline is great but the “collective” in collective leverage is what makes all the difference.
MattDamonSpace 4mo ago
A heavily unionized tech industry over the last 30yrs would be an interesting counterfactual. IMO the ability for individual employees to negotiate for themselves is a positive? As is being able to get rid of bad performers Unionization would hurt the startup ecosystem, at least at the margins, no?
- daveshistory 4mo ago
  It would be a hard model to pick up and move over and just drop into place. The trades that have union halls for carpenters, electricians, etc., aren't normally working in anything as unstable or dynamic as tech startups. If I try and think back to how things were thirty years ago I don't think it really applies. Unions are for big shop floors where bosses could fire you on a dime and replace you and then you're SOL. Skills in high demand 30 years meant fine, you could just go work somewhere else just as easily. Who expects to be in the same place for 35 years anyways?
- 9rx 4mo ago
  A union is merely a group of people who agree to work together for a shared benefit. That doesn't mean that there cannot be individual negotiation, nor does it mean you can't get rid of bad performers. There is no reason why it would need to hurt the startup ecosystem either. If the tech workers wanted those things they could make it so, but they already could have made those things so already and didn't so...
  - MattDamonSpace 4mo ago
    Isn’t Collective Bargaining a cornerstone of the Union pitch?
    - 9rx 4mo ago
      Yes, but that does not preclude layering individual bargaining on top. The collective bargain could simply be something like "you may not track employees", while still leaving each individual employee to negotiate the compensation they seek. If the workers would rather be completely hands-off they could defer all negotiations to a negotiator, but, again, the workers make up the rules. It's whatever they want.
ar_lan 4mo ago
> bringing US workers rights up to the bar set by China I don't strive for 996. Is this really the bar we want to meet?
- crystal_revenge 4mo ago
  The funny thing most Americans don't realize about 996 in China is that the Chinese, while very hard workers, don't work the same way as Americans do. For example lunch is expected to be good (and taken pretty seriously) and followed by an in office nap. This is not some secret thing either but typically encouraged by the company (most office works will have blankets, pillows, eye masks etc at their desk). Even the Chinese don't believe you can grind at your desk non-stop for 12 hours. Don't get me wrong, 996 is awful, but the American re-imagining of it is even worse.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
jmye 4mo ago
> I don’t want to work for a company that makes kill bots, or can renege on climate pledges. Then don't? How is this a union issue?
- bell-cot 4mo ago
  OP is just using "union" as a way of articulating that he's extremely unhappy with current corporate behavior, and also that he wants there to be some sort of at-scale, easy-ish way to correct that behavior.

elevation 4mo ago

> can’t lay off someone to replace them with AI This measure would either be toothless or it would make it impossible for the most toxic (non-criminal) team members to be fired.

bonsai_spool 4mo ago
> or it would make it impossible for the most toxic (non-criminal) team members to be fired. The issue at present is that everyone is being laid off. If we accept this anti-union trope, let's t least accept that it is strictly better than the current situation where no job is safe.
- mattrighetti 4mo ago
  In my native country unions have crippled the job market and most of my peers don’t see any benefit from them, we actually hate them for the most part. Unions are just another way to find a single solution that fits everyone and we all know how that turns out. They’re just be another bureaucratic institution for corrupt politicians. Tons of evidence out there, especially in EU.
  - bonsai_spool 4mo ago
    > In my native country unions have crippled the job market We have to think about this critically. If there were no unions, do you believe there would be more jobs for everyone? If so, what is happening to those jobs? What is happening to the demand that would support those jobs? I'm missing some of the logic here, so want to understand better.
  - geraneum 4mo ago
    Can you provide some concrete examples and sources?
dietr1ch 4mo ago
Right, let's do absolutely nothing so we can fire Joe, who's been underperforming for the last two quarters (because of healthcare issues, life affordability, lack of direction, burnout, etc).

freakynit 4mo ago

The best way to unionize is to follow what Mahatma Gandhi did: Non-cooperation movement. It consists of two broad strategies: 1. Consumer Non-Cooperation (Boycott): Boycott of stuff sold, or given by these companies, irrespective of how attractive it is. 2. The Constructive Program (Self-Reliance): Building and supporting alternatives, even if they cost you a little bit more. All it needs is little self-discipline and a very very tiny bit of sacrifice on daily basis. https://www.nextias.com/blog/non-cooperation-movement/ https://www.nextias.com/blog/non-cooperation-movement/

dyauspitr 4mo ago
Massive individually coordinated group actions only work is very dire circumstances which means for most everyday things they cannot be relied upon.
- freakynit 4mo ago
  We are headed there.
geraneum 4mo ago
The individual self discipline is great but the “collective” in collective leverage is what makes all the difference.

MattDamonSpace 4mo ago

A heavily unionized tech industry over the last 30yrs would be an interesting counterfactual. IMO the ability for individual employees to negotiate for themselves is a positive? As is being able to get rid of bad performers Unionization would hurt the startup ecosystem, at least at the margins, no?

daveshistory 4mo ago
It would be a hard model to pick up and move over and just drop into place. The trades that have union halls for carpenters, electricians, etc., aren't normally working in anything as unstable or dynamic as tech startups. If I try and think back to how things were thirty years ago I don't think it really applies. Unions are for big shop floors where bosses could fire you on a dime and replace you and then you're SOL. Skills in high demand 30 years meant fine, you could just go work somewhere else just as easily. Who expects to be in the same place for 35 years anyways?
9rx 4mo ago
A union is merely a group of people who agree to work together for a shared benefit. That doesn't mean that there cannot be individual negotiation, nor does it mean you can't get rid of bad performers. There is no reason why it would need to hurt the startup ecosystem either. If the tech workers wanted those things they could make it so, but they already could have made those things so already and didn't so...
- MattDamonSpace 4mo ago
  Isn’t Collective Bargaining a cornerstone of the Union pitch?
  - 9rx 4mo ago
    Yes, but that does not preclude layering individual bargaining on top. The collective bargain could simply be something like "you may not track employees", while still leaving each individual employee to negotiate the compensation they seek. If the workers would rather be completely hands-off they could defer all negotiations to a negotiator, but, again, the workers make up the rules. It's whatever they want.

ar_lan 4mo ago

> bringing US workers rights up to the bar set by China I don't strive for 996. Is this really the bar we want to meet?

crystal_revenge 4mo ago
The funny thing most Americans don't realize about 996 in China is that the Chinese, while very hard workers, don't work the same way as Americans do. For example lunch is expected to be good (and taken pretty seriously) and followed by an in office nap. This is not some secret thing either but typically encouraged by the company (most office works will have blankets, pillows, eye masks etc at their desk). Even the Chinese don't believe you can grind at your desk non-stop for 12 hours. Don't get me wrong, 996 is awful, but the American re-imagining of it is even worse.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

jmye 4mo ago

> I don’t want to work for a company that makes kill bots, or can renege on climate pledges. Then don't? How is this a union issue?

bell-cot 4mo ago
OP is just using "union" as a way of articulating that he's extremely unhappy with current corporate behavior, and also that he wants there to be some sort of at-scale, easy-ish way to correct that behavior.