4 ms·

Seeing Around Corners Using Smartphone-Grade Lidar

82 points by marc__1 4mo ago

cuechan 4mo ago
Why not just place a mirror at 45 degrees in the corner? That way you don't need the lidar but you can just look around the corner? It would also work better with the lidar.
- devmor 4mo ago
  I would be interested in seeing your visual mockups of how such a solution works on one of the article’s examples, like a car.
  - dietrichsam 4mo ago
    Every car just needs n number of mirrors on articulating joints and to sense any oncoming cars that need to see around a corner and then receive a command to reposition said mirror.
  - wongarsu 4mo ago
    Like this: https://c8.alamy.com/compde/t0580m/der-verkehr-kurve-spiegel-konvexe-spiegel-strasse-t0580m.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/compde/t0580m/der-verkehr-kurve-spiegel... Or this: https://cdn-01-artemis.media-brady.com/Assets/ImageRoot/DMEU_WebPipeline/11/_l/DMEU_703AXA_11_L_std.lang.all.jpg https://cdn-01-artemis.media-brady.com/Assets/ImageRoot/DMEU... Reasonably common in difficult corners in Germany and Austria. Probably elsewhere too. The downside is that it's road infrastructure that has to be installed. The upside is that it works for everyone, including people in 20 year old cars or on bicycles.
    - devmor 4mo ago
      You know what, that’s fair. That’s a good solution. If it weren’t for the struggles of getting municipal infrastructure installed, I’d prefer it.
    - pfortuny 4mo ago
      These are very common in Spain too.
- noman-land 4mo ago
  Mirrors allow two-way looking.
  - yyyk 4mo ago
    That's easily worked around (e.g. fisheye and appropriate correction). The real problem is that the scenarios discussed don't allow for setup, otherwise they could just use preplaced cameras...
ofrzeta 4mo ago
So this only works if you have walls opposite of this corner?
- libria 4mo ago
  It seems to require a lidar reflective object. Likely more generally, the effectiveness lowers the less objects there are to bounce and return signal. It could probably work with less accuracy/resolution against visible vehicles in the opposite lane, a hedgerow, postal box, pedestrian carrying a visible laptop and possibly synthesize all of these to improve its guess.
- wongarsu 4mo ago
  The video thumbnail implies bouncing off the ground, not a wall. Not sure how the geometry works out for that
mberlove 4mo ago
This specific finding is minor, but its implications are not IMHO. From the article it appears the researchers consider this a discovery in effect. If consumer hardware is already capable (in many settings) of reproducing what were formerly research-level and industry-grade techniques, it may be a transformation in more areas of technology than would be obvious. I am very curious to see if there will be further findings in this area.
- libria 4mo ago
  The military/LEO is probably already envisioning a Daredevil like helmet with augmented-reality lenses that overlay non-line-of-sight threats in real time.
  - deburo 4mo ago
    Didn't we already have a video of that? I don't remember the data sources used to generate the overlay, however. Was it multiple solders' helmets sharing their data, and/or perhaps even a drone from above?
    - logtempo 4mo ago
      anduril eagle eye probably
- momoschili 4mo ago
  This is a very natural progression of technologies that escape industry/defense to get into the consumer's hand.
aftbit 4mo ago
Smartphone grade lidar == FaceID ?
- momoschili 4mo ago
  depends on what phone you have but LIDAR sensors are used for more than just faceID
  - aftbit 4mo ago
    Like what? Portrait mode? I have a Pixel 8 which I believe does something else to fake depth maps.
    - momoschili 4mo ago
      Pixel 8 uses a version of stereo imaging but at the pixel level instead of at the full sensor level. It's not fake at the base level, the physics of it allow for depth information to be retrieved this way (compared to most monocular deep depth for example, which does not) IDK about other manufacturers, but the iPhone Pros have a pretty good measurement app that uses LIDAR, there's some augmented reality apps that use it, and it's also used for autofocus in dark environments. There's plenty of ways to use depth information.
transpute 4mo ago
Ordinary WiFi can "see" through walls/corners with biometric fingerprinting of humans, https://gizmodo.com/researchers-issue-warning-about-tech-that-could-turn-every-router-into-a-potential-means-for-surveillance-2000763181 https://gizmodo.com/researchers-issue-warning-about-tech-tha... Researchers collected WiFi signal recordings from nearly 200 participants as they walked through a WiFi field using different walking styles. The data was recorded from four different perspectives using both the BFI method and an older WiFi sensing approach relying on channel state information, or CSI. “This technology turns every router into a potential means for surveillance,” said co-author Julian Todt in the press release. “If you regularly pass by a café that operates a WiFi network, you could be identified there without noticing it and be recognized later – for example by public authorities or companies.” The researchers are urging the IEEE, the organization that sets industry standards, to include stronger privacy safeguards in the upcoming 802.11bf standard, which is meant to standardize WiFi sensing applications.

82 points by marc__1 4mo ago

Why not just place a mirror at 45 degrees in the corner? That way you don't need the lidar but you can just look around the corner? It would also work better with the lidar.

devmor 4mo ago
I would be interested in seeing your visual mockups of how such a solution works on one of the article’s examples, like a car.
- dietrichsam 4mo ago
  Every car just needs n number of mirrors on articulating joints and to sense any oncoming cars that need to see around a corner and then receive a command to reposition said mirror.
- wongarsu 4mo ago
  Like this: https://c8.alamy.com/compde/t0580m/der-verkehr-kurve-spiegel-konvexe-spiegel-strasse-t0580m.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/compde/t0580m/der-verkehr-kurve-spiegel... Or this: https://cdn-01-artemis.media-brady.com/Assets/ImageRoot/DMEU_WebPipeline/11/_l/DMEU_703AXA_11_L_std.lang.all.jpg https://cdn-01-artemis.media-brady.com/Assets/ImageRoot/DMEU... Reasonably common in difficult corners in Germany and Austria. Probably elsewhere too. The downside is that it's road infrastructure that has to be installed. The upside is that it works for everyone, including people in 20 year old cars or on bicycles.
  - devmor 4mo ago
    You know what, that’s fair. That’s a good solution. If it weren’t for the struggles of getting municipal infrastructure installed, I’d prefer it.
  - pfortuny 4mo ago
    These are very common in Spain too.
noman-land 4mo ago
Mirrors allow two-way looking.
- yyyk 4mo ago
  That's easily worked around (e.g. fisheye and appropriate correction). The real problem is that the scenarios discussed don't allow for setup, otherwise they could just use preplaced cameras...

ofrzeta 4mo ago

So this only works if you have walls opposite of this corner?

libria 4mo ago
It seems to require a lidar reflective object. Likely more generally, the effectiveness lowers the less objects there are to bounce and return signal. It could probably work with less accuracy/resolution against visible vehicles in the opposite lane, a hedgerow, postal box, pedestrian carrying a visible laptop and possibly synthesize all of these to improve its guess.
wongarsu 4mo ago
The video thumbnail implies bouncing off the ground, not a wall. Not sure how the geometry works out for that

mberlove 4mo ago

This specific finding is minor, but its implications are not IMHO. From the article it appears the researchers consider this a discovery in effect. If consumer hardware is already capable (in many settings) of reproducing what were formerly research-level and industry-grade techniques, it may be a transformation in more areas of technology than would be obvious. I am very curious to see if there will be further findings in this area.

libria 4mo ago
The military/LEO is probably already envisioning a Daredevil like helmet with augmented-reality lenses that overlay non-line-of-sight threats in real time.
- deburo 4mo ago
  Didn't we already have a video of that? I don't remember the data sources used to generate the overlay, however. Was it multiple solders' helmets sharing their data, and/or perhaps even a drone from above?
  - logtempo 4mo ago
    anduril eagle eye probably
momoschili 4mo ago
This is a very natural progression of technologies that escape industry/defense to get into the consumer's hand.

aftbit 4mo ago

Smartphone grade lidar == FaceID ?

momoschili 4mo ago
depends on what phone you have but LIDAR sensors are used for more than just faceID
- aftbit 4mo ago
  Like what? Portrait mode? I have a Pixel 8 which I believe does something else to fake depth maps.
  - momoschili 4mo ago
    Pixel 8 uses a version of stereo imaging but at the pixel level instead of at the full sensor level. It's not fake at the base level, the physics of it allow for depth information to be retrieved this way (compared to most monocular deep depth for example, which does not) IDK about other manufacturers, but the iPhone Pros have a pretty good measurement app that uses LIDAR, there's some augmented reality apps that use it, and it's also used for autofocus in dark environments. There's plenty of ways to use depth information.

transpute 4mo ago

Ordinary WiFi can "see" through walls/corners with biometric fingerprinting of humans, https://gizmodo.com/researchers-issue-warning-about-tech-that-could-turn-every-router-into-a-potential-means-for-surveillance-2000763181 https://gizmodo.com/researchers-issue-warning-about-tech-tha... Researchers collected WiFi signal recordings from nearly 200 participants as they walked through a WiFi field using different walking styles. The data was recorded from four different perspectives using both the BFI method and an older WiFi sensing approach relying on channel state information, or CSI. “This technology turns every router into a potential means for surveillance,” said co-author Julian Todt in the press release. “If you regularly pass by a café that operates a WiFi network, you could be identified there without noticing it and be recognized later – for example by public authorities or companies.” The researchers are urging the IEEE, the organization that sets industry standards, to include stronger privacy safeguards in the upcoming 802.11bf standard, which is meant to standardize WiFi sensing applications.