5 ms·

> "Even if it was a slur (I don’t consider it one)" The term was literally created in star wars to use as a racial slur against droids

the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
The term was adopted in Star Wars and has been used in science fiction before and after it too. It probably sits somewhere on some scale but it has always been used in literature as a term for machines and from that perspective I find it appropriate. A machine does not have feelings. If you call your power drill a piece of shit you are not overstepping any bounds either.
- voidUpdate 4mo ago
  Well maybe other people are different, but I'd feel uncomfortable using a slur against things as well as people. I don't have many qualms about using an insult to a specific item if I feel it's warranted, but using a racial slur is stepping over a line for me. I'd call a black person a twat if they were being a twat, but I wouldn't use the n words against them, no matter how much of a twat they were being
  - the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
    Where to me this discussion completely goes in a questionable direction is the idea that there are slurs against inanimate objects and that you would put that into the same category as derogatory terms against humans. The reason you don’t insult other humans should be obvious, but none of that translates to machines. From my perspective it’s a grave mistake that we’re even remotely entertaining the idea right now that LLMs are sentient. From that perspective I really quite appreciate the term. That said, I can see that it really seems to trigger some folks. I’m not sure we have found the right language to refer to what we have.
    - voidUpdate 4mo ago
      Whereas I don't think justifying the use of a slur, a word that is commonly used to be derogatory, is a good thing, even when using it in other contexts. "It's ok because its not a human" feels dangerously close to justifications for using the n word in the past
      - the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
        The reason racism is a problem is because humans subdivide humans. A machine is not human. Putting these things on the same line is in fact exactly the issue I have with this. So no. I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the idea that this is in any way related to the n-word precisely because this is addressed as non humans. That we are seriously considering if these things should be in any ways be equated to humans to me is a problem. They are not. They cannot and must not be given rights or responsibilities. They are dumb tools and if we lose sight of that, we can go down really problematic paths. I have even on the receiving side of agent psychosis for more than a year now (because people talk to the LLM and sometimes the LLM tells people to talk to me) and there is only darkness there.
        voidUpdate 4mo ago
        I'm not saying that LLMs are human, I'm saying that casually using slurs in any context is not a good mindset
        the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
        I think that depends on how much weight you give to that word. You might attribute a lot of weight to it, but I don't. Language changes and its what we make of it. Maybe if a prevailing opinion arrives that people respond very negatively to that word, then I will have to rethink my choice of words, but right now I prefer attempting to establish it as a more neutral term for a machine. My hunch is that this term is loaded not because it's seen as a slur, but because people are currently attempting to give LLMs a soul and they are developing a certain unease about some of the consequences that come with it. For some the LLM is developing from a soul-less tool to a something with a personality, something they bond with, that's where some of those lines are blurring. I just don't think this is healthy at all.
  - nchmy 4mo ago
    Louis ck has something to say on this https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw
nchmy 4mo ago
Droid don't have race. Moreover, even if they did, that does not extend the slur to a particular group of humans who the word was not even being used towards.

the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago

The term was adopted in Star Wars and has been used in science fiction before and after it too. It probably sits somewhere on some scale but it has always been used in literature as a term for machines and from that perspective I find it appropriate. A machine does not have feelings. If you call your power drill a piece of shit you are not overstepping any bounds either.

voidUpdate 4mo ago
Well maybe other people are different, but I'd feel uncomfortable using a slur against things as well as people. I don't have many qualms about using an insult to a specific item if I feel it's warranted, but using a racial slur is stepping over a line for me. I'd call a black person a twat if they were being a twat, but I wouldn't use the n words against them, no matter how much of a twat they were being
- the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
  Where to me this discussion completely goes in a questionable direction is the idea that there are slurs against inanimate objects and that you would put that into the same category as derogatory terms against humans. The reason you don’t insult other humans should be obvious, but none of that translates to machines. From my perspective it’s a grave mistake that we’re even remotely entertaining the idea right now that LLMs are sentient. From that perspective I really quite appreciate the term. That said, I can see that it really seems to trigger some folks. I’m not sure we have found the right language to refer to what we have.
  - voidUpdate 4mo ago
    Whereas I don't think justifying the use of a slur, a word that is commonly used to be derogatory, is a good thing, even when using it in other contexts. "It's ok because its not a human" feels dangerously close to justifications for using the n word in the past
    - the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
      The reason racism is a problem is because humans subdivide humans. A machine is not human. Putting these things on the same line is in fact exactly the issue I have with this. So no. I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the idea that this is in any way related to the n-word precisely because this is addressed as non humans. That we are seriously considering if these things should be in any ways be equated to humans to me is a problem. They are not. They cannot and must not be given rights or responsibilities. They are dumb tools and if we lose sight of that, we can go down really problematic paths. I have even on the receiving side of agent psychosis for more than a year now (because people talk to the LLM and sometimes the LLM tells people to talk to me) and there is only darkness there.
      - voidUpdate 4mo ago
        I'm not saying that LLMs are human, I'm saying that casually using slurs in any context is not a good mindset
        the_mitsuhiko 4mo ago
        I think that depends on how much weight you give to that word. You might attribute a lot of weight to it, but I don't. Language changes and its what we make of it. Maybe if a prevailing opinion arrives that people respond very negatively to that word, then I will have to rethink my choice of words, but right now I prefer attempting to establish it as a more neutral term for a machine. My hunch is that this term is loaded not because it's seen as a slur, but because people are currently attempting to give LLMs a soul and they are developing a certain unease about some of the consequences that come with it. For some the LLM is developing from a soul-less tool to a something with a personality, something they bond with, that's where some of those lines are blurring. I just don't think this is healthy at all.
- nchmy 4mo ago
  Louis ck has something to say on this https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw https://youtu.be/zuLrBLxbLxw

nchmy 4mo ago

Droid don't have race. Moreover, even if they did, that does not extend the slur to a particular group of humans who the word was not even being used towards.