8 ms·

Is it propaganda though? Japan is more aligned with ‘the west’ not only in geopolitics but in the system of governance that was imposed upon it by via USA occup

Is it propaganda though? Japan is more aligned with ‘the west’ not only in geopolitics but in the system of governance that was imposed upon it by via USA occuptation. Whereas China has a very different political system that is generally poorly understood and distrusted. Regardless, I don’t know where you’re from, but I see plenty of idolizing of China and how it manages to solve big problems at speeds unseen outside of mobilization in other parts of the globe. China-studies are a big thing at the moment. The positive view of Japan probably flows from its postwar boom years and popculture exports. China is at the moment being viewed with suspicion over its military buildup near Taiwan and creeping authoritarianism under Xi. This could all change again in the future depending on the actions China will take.

ux266478 4mo ago
> but I see plenty of idolizing of China and how it manages to solve big problems at speeds unseen This is actually a great example for extant romanticization of China. People lauding Chinese expediency in the context of industry and construction often don't realize it's almost entirely enabled by extreme underregulation and underenforcement of industrial safety standards. Chinese people themselves will often point this out, though depending on the person they may frame it more in a style of "The West is slow because of all of the red tape!" Of the subset of Westerners who are aware of this, sometimes I have to balk at how many of them will take that framing to heart and paint it as a positive thing. Even most Chinese don't have a positive view of it, not in reality. At most it's a tragic necessity required to build China up, though younger Chinese rightly tend to see it for what it is: corporate exploitation of laborers. Of course in the context of solving political problems, the Politburo readily cutting through its own invented problems is another matter.
- jimbokun 4mo ago
  The recent Abundance movement on the left argues strongly that progress has been held back by over regulation and bureaucratic processes.
  - adamwk 4mo ago
    Does it? I’ve seen Ezra Klein talk about his book and he talked about how bureaucracy is frequently a scapegoat for getting things done. Europe is very bureaucratic yet is able to build. The issue he called out is red tape yes but more so litigation by the private citizen. That any individual can stop an apartment being built because it blocks morning light into their flower bed
    - jimbokun 4mo ago
      Those law suits are made possible by the regulations.
      - ux266478 4mo ago
        They're made possible because all but the most frivolous lawsuits are not disincentivized, but are in fact tolerated as a tacit, systemic feature by the state and the bar association. The example given is a stalling tactic. Stalling tactics also exist in China through property rights, it's a weird thing to hold up as contrast. Having a right to the house you own is such a fundamentally important thing to have in a society. That it can be abused because bureaucracy will tolerate it out of epistemic humility doesn't change that fact.
    - ajmurmann 4mo ago
      Isn't he for relaxing zoning? Arguably one of the main pieces of red tape leading to the housing crisis
  - shimman 4mo ago
    Good thing voters are skeptical of abundance or they have never heard of it (like 90% of democratic party members have never heard of abundance). Thank fuck too. Neoliberalism sucks, along with EK + DT.
    - jimbokun 4mo ago
      It’s hilarious to me all the progressives like yourself absolutely losing their shit over someone saying they want government to be more effective and accomplish things instead of just spending tons of money and nothing actually changing.
- com2kid 4mo ago
  > People lauding Chinese expediency in the context of industry and construction often don't realize it's almost entirely enabled by extreme underregulation and underenforcement of industrial safety standards Kind of like Tesla's latest factories, or DR Horton building homes with massive problems from day 1? Or Silicon Valley being a collection of superfund cleanup sites? Or just the environmental pollution, in general, in Texas? No one has figured out how to balance growth with safety. Ideally it shouldn't be hard, the total amount of money saved is pennies compared to the overall investment, but making everyone follow the rules via regulations ends to being a huge cost and time multiplier.
  - ux266478 4mo ago
    The more direct comparison is the blue collar working conditions throughout the west in the late 19th and early 20th centuries actually. It is true that environmental protections could be much better in the United States, did you assume I would disagree or find it shocking? Why? > but making everyone follow the rules via regulations ends to being a huge cost and time multiplier. The cost and extra time it takes saves lives. That's the bottom line. It's your attitude that gets people maimed and killed.
    - com2kid 4mo ago
      > The cost and extra time it takes saves lives. That's the bottom line. It's your attitude that gets people maimed and killed. My argument, and I should have made it clearer, is that we are paying a huge penalty for people who are dishonest. The amount of money they save by being dishonest and endangering others is generally tiny, but the cost to society to prevent the dishonesty is huge in the form of regulations.

ux266478 4mo ago

> but I see plenty of idolizing of China and how it manages to solve big problems at speeds unseen This is actually a great example for extant romanticization of China. People lauding Chinese expediency in the context of industry and construction often don't realize it's almost entirely enabled by extreme underregulation and underenforcement of industrial safety standards. Chinese people themselves will often point this out, though depending on the person they may frame it more in a style of "The West is slow because of all of the red tape!" Of the subset of Westerners who are aware of this, sometimes I have to balk at how many of them will take that framing to heart and paint it as a positive thing. Even most Chinese don't have a positive view of it, not in reality. At most it's a tragic necessity required to build China up, though younger Chinese rightly tend to see it for what it is: corporate exploitation of laborers. Of course in the context of solving political problems, the Politburo readily cutting through its own invented problems is another matter.

jimbokun 4mo ago
The recent Abundance movement on the left argues strongly that progress has been held back by over regulation and bureaucratic processes.
- adamwk 4mo ago
  Does it? I’ve seen Ezra Klein talk about his book and he talked about how bureaucracy is frequently a scapegoat for getting things done. Europe is very bureaucratic yet is able to build. The issue he called out is red tape yes but more so litigation by the private citizen. That any individual can stop an apartment being built because it blocks morning light into their flower bed
  - jimbokun 4mo ago
    Those law suits are made possible by the regulations.
    - ux266478 4mo ago
      They're made possible because all but the most frivolous lawsuits are not disincentivized, but are in fact tolerated as a tacit, systemic feature by the state and the bar association. The example given is a stalling tactic. Stalling tactics also exist in China through property rights, it's a weird thing to hold up as contrast. Having a right to the house you own is such a fundamentally important thing to have in a society. That it can be abused because bureaucracy will tolerate it out of epistemic humility doesn't change that fact.
  - ajmurmann 4mo ago
    Isn't he for relaxing zoning? Arguably one of the main pieces of red tape leading to the housing crisis
- shimman 4mo ago
  Good thing voters are skeptical of abundance or they have never heard of it (like 90% of democratic party members have never heard of abundance). Thank fuck too. Neoliberalism sucks, along with EK + DT.
  - jimbokun 4mo ago
    It’s hilarious to me all the progressives like yourself absolutely losing their shit over someone saying they want government to be more effective and accomplish things instead of just spending tons of money and nothing actually changing.
com2kid 4mo ago
> People lauding Chinese expediency in the context of industry and construction often don't realize it's almost entirely enabled by extreme underregulation and underenforcement of industrial safety standards Kind of like Tesla's latest factories, or DR Horton building homes with massive problems from day 1? Or Silicon Valley being a collection of superfund cleanup sites? Or just the environmental pollution, in general, in Texas? No one has figured out how to balance growth with safety. Ideally it shouldn't be hard, the total amount of money saved is pennies compared to the overall investment, but making everyone follow the rules via regulations ends to being a huge cost and time multiplier.
- ux266478 4mo ago
  The more direct comparison is the blue collar working conditions throughout the west in the late 19th and early 20th centuries actually. It is true that environmental protections could be much better in the United States, did you assume I would disagree or find it shocking? Why? > but making everyone follow the rules via regulations ends to being a huge cost and time multiplier. The cost and extra time it takes saves lives. That's the bottom line. It's your attitude that gets people maimed and killed.
  - com2kid 4mo ago
    > The cost and extra time it takes saves lives. That's the bottom line. It's your attitude that gets people maimed and killed. My argument, and I should have made it clearer, is that we are paying a huge penalty for people who are dishonest. The amount of money they save by being dishonest and endangering others is generally tiny, but the cost to society to prevent the dishonesty is huge in the form of regulations.