8 ms·

That's already how civilization works. There's no one person that knows everything about (say) modern food production, from top to bottom. If it ever stopped wo

That's already how civilization works. There's no one person that knows everything about (say) modern food production, from top to bottom. If it ever stopped working (because too much knowledge was lost somehow), most people would die. And yet the system seems fairly resilient. Mostly, only local knowledge ever seems to be necessary to keep the whole thing running. Super-intelligence (or even just super-normal-intelligence) might expand the scope of what constitutes local knowledge but it will still run into limits somewhere.

lefra 4mo ago
> There's no one person that knows everything about (say) modern food production True, but it is possible to assemble a team of people that does, with backup for each person. There's also teachers and written knowledge to educate new team members. That's what makes it resilient. I think that's a very different situation from what's decribed.
- pishpash 4mo ago
  People still do grow their own food for self sufficiency. I am sure there will be luddites who live in self-sufficient communes like the Amish.
  - timschmidt 4mo ago
    People lump them together because of an anti-technology reputation, but I don't think most Amish would have trucked with Luddites. Amish tend to avoid actively participating in popular social movements, and oppose violence and property destruction.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  Agreed, the food production analogy doesn't really work because the issue is the scale of the problem. On the one end there's the realm where you need a few specialists and a small group could potentially figure the entire thing out from scratch given a bit of time and effort. And then at the opposite extreme there's the realm where everything is built on a giant pyramid of artifacts that currently work, just keeping each individual piece running day to day requires a dedicated expert, and the combined stack took hundreds or thousands of lifetime equivalents to develop. The idea being that once a toolchain becomes sufficiently complex if you ever have to bootstrap it again for whatever reason you won't be able to speedrun the process the way you might naively expect. I think modern chip production likely already reached this point several decades ago. As evidence I'll point out that China only recently achieved EUV and remains several nodes behind despite directing an obscene amount of resources towards the initiative.
  - anthonyrstevens 4mo ago
    Speaking of pyramid (shapes), this reminds me of an idea in Robert Silverberg's Majipoor series - there's a 30-mile high mountain with populated cities all the way up to the top whose weather and temperature is controlled by 8,000-year-old-tech established by the original colonizers. My memory is that nobody at the time of the series' events knows how to operate the tech - it just works.
leonidasrup 4mo ago
[dead]
dandaka 4mo ago
We can reach a different situation 1/ No one knows how even small components work, because their inner working mechanism is too hard to understand by human mind 2/ The whole society is run (in intelligence sense) by alien minds
bayindirh 4mo ago
However, you can assemble a team of humans who knows the whole pipeline. This trajectory lands us squarely in "The Machine Stops" of "Pump Six" territory, where assembling such a team or going back to a simpler system is impossible
- withinboredom 4mo ago
  Sorta. Take a look at a brick in a house. You'd need everyone from geologists to miners to kiln specialists to construction workers and engineers -- not to mention all the people required to make the tools required to make the tools. The team would likely involve well over 1000 people. So, "just assemble a team" is not quite as simple as you make it sound.
  - bayindirh 4mo ago
    Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, the knowledge is embodied by humans, or can be learnt again. Let it be 100, 1000 or 10000 people. At the end of the day, they are made of meat. When you let the machines do it, and don't care about moving it towards human domain (i.e. meatspace), you're done.
  - fc417fc802 4mo ago
    I don't think that's true in the sense meant. Sure, to reproduce a near replica of a specific brick from first principles. But not to produce something broadly functionally equivalent. You can (rather inefficiently) manufacture approximately equivalent bricks in your backyard on your own, possibly even from locally harvested material depending on where you live.
    - withinboredom 4mo ago
      Well. Sure. If we move the goal post to “something passable and good enough” you only need a small number of people. In that sense, we are lucky that “black smithing” (as a proper trade) only ended in the last hundred years and many people continue it as a hobby. In that case, “small team of hobbyists” can likely reproduce a few bricks. But bootstrapping mass production of bricks? Unlikely.

lefra 4mo ago

> There's no one person that knows everything about (say) modern food production True, but it is possible to assemble a team of people that does, with backup for each person. There's also teachers and written knowledge to educate new team members. That's what makes it resilient. I think that's a very different situation from what's decribed.

pishpash 4mo ago
People still do grow their own food for self sufficiency. I am sure there will be luddites who live in self-sufficient communes like the Amish.
- timschmidt 4mo ago
  People lump them together because of an anti-technology reputation, but I don't think most Amish would have trucked with Luddites. Amish tend to avoid actively participating in popular social movements, and oppose violence and property destruction.
fc417fc802 4mo ago
Agreed, the food production analogy doesn't really work because the issue is the scale of the problem. On the one end there's the realm where you need a few specialists and a small group could potentially figure the entire thing out from scratch given a bit of time and effort. And then at the opposite extreme there's the realm where everything is built on a giant pyramid of artifacts that currently work, just keeping each individual piece running day to day requires a dedicated expert, and the combined stack took hundreds or thousands of lifetime equivalents to develop. The idea being that once a toolchain becomes sufficiently complex if you ever have to bootstrap it again for whatever reason you won't be able to speedrun the process the way you might naively expect. I think modern chip production likely already reached this point several decades ago. As evidence I'll point out that China only recently achieved EUV and remains several nodes behind despite directing an obscene amount of resources towards the initiative.
- anthonyrstevens 4mo ago
  Speaking of pyramid (shapes), this reminds me of an idea in Robert Silverberg's Majipoor series - there's a 30-mile high mountain with populated cities all the way up to the top whose weather and temperature is controlled by 8,000-year-old-tech established by the original colonizers. My memory is that nobody at the time of the series' events knows how to operate the tech - it just works.

leonidasrup 4mo ago

[dead]

dandaka 4mo ago

We can reach a different situation 1/ No one knows how even small components work, because their inner working mechanism is too hard to understand by human mind 2/ The whole society is run (in intelligence sense) by alien minds

bayindirh 4mo ago

However, you can assemble a team of humans who knows the whole pipeline. This trajectory lands us squarely in "The Machine Stops" of "Pump Six" territory, where assembling such a team or going back to a simpler system is impossible

withinboredom 4mo ago
Sorta. Take a look at a brick in a house. You'd need everyone from geologists to miners to kiln specialists to construction workers and engineers -- not to mention all the people required to make the tools required to make the tools. The team would likely involve well over 1000 people. So, "just assemble a team" is not quite as simple as you make it sound.
- bayindirh 4mo ago
  Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, the knowledge is embodied by humans, or can be learnt again. Let it be 100, 1000 or 10000 people. At the end of the day, they are made of meat. When you let the machines do it, and don't care about moving it towards human domain (i.e. meatspace), you're done.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  I don't think that's true in the sense meant. Sure, to reproduce a near replica of a specific brick from first principles. But not to produce something broadly functionally equivalent. You can (rather inefficiently) manufacture approximately equivalent bricks in your backyard on your own, possibly even from locally harvested material depending on where you live.
  - withinboredom 4mo ago
    Well. Sure. If we move the goal post to “something passable and good enough” you only need a small number of people. In that sense, we are lucky that “black smithing” (as a proper trade) only ended in the last hundred years and many people continue it as a hobby. In that case, “small team of hobbyists” can likely reproduce a few bricks. But bootstrapping mass production of bricks? Unlikely.