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California imports a third of its electricity, and that's expensive. It gets almost another third from natural gas. They've been changing rapidly from fossil fu

by dn3500 4mo ago

California imports a third of its electricity, and that's expensive. It gets almost another third from natural gas. They've been changing rapidly from fossil fuels and nuclear to renewables and that's pretty capital intensive. And there have been some huge costs associated with the wildfires. There's a bit more technical info on California battery storage here: https://www.ess-news.com/2025/04/11/california-battery-dominance-coming-into-view/ https://www.ess-news.com/2025/04/11/california-battery-domin...

londons_explore 4mo ago
It appears expensive electricity is mostly a policy decision. Schemes to support low carbon energy, strict emissions controls etc. Let everyone do what they were doing in 1980, and prices would be rock bottom by now.
- remarkEon 4mo ago
  Yeah I don’t understand why the first priority of any policy maker isn’t to make the cost of electricity as low as possible. We certainly have the technology to do this.
dheera 4mo ago
The problem with renewables I have is that "what's good for the earth" and capitalism simply don't mix. Solar was fundamentally supposed to be almost-free electricity. You put a bunch of panels up and free energy from the nearest star. The stark reality though is that the people and institutions in control of solar equipment (this includes manufacturers, tariffs, etc.) reprice their stuff to match the price of the dirty electricity. And then they reprice their stuff again to assume that everyone loves to borrow money. At that point it becomes not worth it at all. No, I don't want a solar installation to pay for itself in 15 years. I want equipment that gives me free electricity starting next month. If it costs less than a months' worth of electricity and I won't have an electricity bill starting next month, I'm interested. If not, it's outside my budget and planning horizon.
- MattPalmer1086 4mo ago
  The break even for home solar is too long for me also. Every now and again I look at it, and even with subsidies it's gonna be about 12 to 15 years before I see any cost saving.
  - bartvk 4mo ago
    What if you drive electric?
    - dheera 4mo ago
      I drive an electric. It doesn't save money because the car itself is more expensive by exactly as much as you would save over the life of the car. And then the $700/year registration fees because you don't pay the fuel tax. Again, stupid capitalism.
- pingou 4mo ago
  How do you explain that solar got 50% less expensive in the last 10 years? Why would people and institutions in control of solar equipment reprice their stuff to match the price of dirty electricity? You think there is no competition? Or you confuse it with the system that has been put in place where the price of electricity in the grid is set up by the most expensive producer at the time (which does make sense although you can argue against it). Solar installation should pay for itself in less than 15 years in most cases, half the time according to that article: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/10/03/average-u-s-residential-solar-project-breaks-even-at-7-5-years-said-energysage/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/10/03/average-u-s-residenti... (and residential solar is much less cost-effective than large-scale solar farms).
  - dheera 4mo ago
    > less than 15 years But can it pay itself in a month or two? That's the bar. I cannot financially plan for even one year later. Too many unknowns. A really good coffee machine that can do lattes costs maybe $200. If lattes at coffee shops cost $8 including stupid high CA taxes and the stupid puppy face guilt tips, it pays for itself after ~35 lattes including supply costs, or just over a month. That's the bar for pretty much anything. Figure out how to sell me $500 in solar panels that generates $500 worth of electricity over the next month and make it tax deductible with no income limits. That is how you cover the country in clean energy. FAST. Until politicians can get their act together, slam the hammer and make exactly this happen, we're going to be on dirty electricity for a long time. That should especially be the bar for clean energy. Clean energy shouldn't be a luxury for the wealthy.
ZeroGravitas 4mo ago
In general, imports are cheaper than the alternative, because if you have local gas plants that aren't maxed out, then you'd use those rather than pay more to import. Some quick googling suggests this holds in California too.

by dn3500 4mo ago

londons_explore 4mo ago

It appears expensive electricity is mostly a policy decision. Schemes to support low carbon energy, strict emissions controls etc. Let everyone do what they were doing in 1980, and prices would be rock bottom by now.

remarkEon 4mo ago
Yeah I don’t understand why the first priority of any policy maker isn’t to make the cost of electricity as low as possible. We certainly have the technology to do this.

dheera 4mo ago

The problem with renewables I have is that "what's good for the earth" and capitalism simply don't mix. Solar was fundamentally supposed to be almost-free electricity. You put a bunch of panels up and free energy from the nearest star. The stark reality though is that the people and institutions in control of solar equipment (this includes manufacturers, tariffs, etc.) reprice their stuff to match the price of the dirty electricity. And then they reprice their stuff again to assume that everyone loves to borrow money. At that point it becomes not worth it at all. No, I don't want a solar installation to pay for itself in 15 years. I want equipment that gives me free electricity starting next month. If it costs less than a months' worth of electricity and I won't have an electricity bill starting next month, I'm interested. If not, it's outside my budget and planning horizon.

MattPalmer1086 4mo ago
The break even for home solar is too long for me also. Every now and again I look at it, and even with subsidies it's gonna be about 12 to 15 years before I see any cost saving.
- bartvk 4mo ago
  What if you drive electric?
  - dheera 4mo ago
    I drive an electric. It doesn't save money because the car itself is more expensive by exactly as much as you would save over the life of the car. And then the $700/year registration fees because you don't pay the fuel tax. Again, stupid capitalism.
pingou 4mo ago
How do you explain that solar got 50% less expensive in the last 10 years? Why would people and institutions in control of solar equipment reprice their stuff to match the price of dirty electricity? You think there is no competition? Or you confuse it with the system that has been put in place where the price of electricity in the grid is set up by the most expensive producer at the time (which does make sense although you can argue against it). Solar installation should pay for itself in less than 15 years in most cases, half the time according to that article: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/10/03/average-u-s-residential-solar-project-breaks-even-at-7-5-years-said-energysage/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/10/03/average-u-s-residenti... (and residential solar is much less cost-effective than large-scale solar farms).
- dheera 4mo ago
  > less than 15 years But can it pay itself in a month or two? That's the bar. I cannot financially plan for even one year later. Too many unknowns. A really good coffee machine that can do lattes costs maybe $200. If lattes at coffee shops cost $8 including stupid high CA taxes and the stupid puppy face guilt tips, it pays for itself after ~35 lattes including supply costs, or just over a month. That's the bar for pretty much anything. Figure out how to sell me $500 in solar panels that generates $500 worth of electricity over the next month and make it tax deductible with no income limits. That is how you cover the country in clean energy. FAST. Until politicians can get their act together, slam the hammer and make exactly this happen, we're going to be on dirty electricity for a long time. That should especially be the bar for clean energy. Clean energy shouldn't be a luxury for the wealthy.

ZeroGravitas 4mo ago

In general, imports are cheaper than the alternative, because if you have local gas plants that aren't maxed out, then you'd use those rather than pay more to import. Some quick googling suggests this holds in California too.