8 ms·

I don't use Android right now and haven't used Google'd Android for almost a decade. And I won't. If this is the hill I die on, so be it. I'm not going to use

by Worf 4mo ago

I don't use Android right now and haven't used Google'd Android for almost a decade. And I won't. If this is the hill I die on, so be it. I'm not going to use any sort of hardware attestation, especially one controlled by Google. You shouldn't either, even if you have an unrooted Google-certified Android phone.

brikym 4mo ago
It's all fun until you can't get paid because some fintech app doesn't work. That's why we need regulations. I don't see politicians ever going against an advertising company when they're customers.
- freedomben 4mo ago
  Indeed, I generally favor being conservative with regulations because they can genuinely impede progress and can be really hard to change or remove when they're bad, but this is an issue that we need regulation for. It's just too much in the interest of big tech to lock us down and strip us of our freedom of compute. Short of regulation. Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong.
  - pino83 4mo ago
    One unfortunate aspect of the entire problem: Go back, let's say 10, 15 or 20 years, when forces were a bit more balanced than today. When all these issues were already quite obvious, but probably somewhat easier to solve. The same people that cry loudly today were completely ignoring all these issues. Actively. And when someone came up with them, that guy was just an idi*t, disturbing the good mood. Right? I can still remember all the conversations that I had, or that I read. Today, they'll deny that and still call me an idiot. Anyways... PS: Sure, there always were a handful of exceptions. If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%.
    - dwedge 4mo ago
      So just to clarify, you also didn't solve anything but you want everyone to know you told them so and you were smarter? > If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%. Reminds me of Facebook engagement bait
      - pino83 4mo ago
        > Reminds me of Facebook engagement bait If you say so. I don't know. I was never an active part of that big problem (so btw I also had nothing to "solve"). You were?
      - donmcronald 4mo ago
        I saw a lot of people get told they were too dumb to understand how the app stores or Adobe subscriptions were a good value proposition. A lot of people rolled in the mud and now they’re upset their clothes are dirty. If it didn’t affect those of us that tried to resist, I wouldn’t care, but we got dragged along unwillingly and now it may be impossible to hit the brakes before corporations control everything by usurping control of our identity systems.
        pino83 4mo ago
        Oh, yeah, these discussions as well... Precisely. Good that some people are able to translate my thoughts into actual English... :D
  - mikepurvis 4mo ago
    An easy first step ahead of a full ban would be insisting that hardware attestation never be used as a gate to access government services. Most other things I can vote with my feet, but viewing my tax returns or renewing my passport are things that can only happen in one place.
    - donmcronald 4mo ago
      This is really the most important thing for me. I don’t want to be obligated by law to use some identity or attestation service tied to big tech. I might be ok with my bank handling it because they already require ultimate trust, but not if they simply defer to big tech or implement infrastructure on foreign ccTLDs (id.me, verified.me, etc.). I’m Canadian and watching our government sell our souls to American tech companies is beyond scary.
      - mikepurvis 4mo ago
        Yes, Canadian here also and I feel the same. I'm pretty heavily Googled these days (gmail, gphotos, Pixel 10) and I work for a US tech company, so maybe I'm kidding myself that it matters much for me personally, but I'd be pretty sad if I ever found myself unable to access any level of government service because I didn't have a Google or Apple smartphone that I could point at a QR code on the screen.
  - KPGv2 4mo ago
    > Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong. Everyone in power wants it, across the entire globe.
  - userbinator 4mo ago
    The sort of regulation we need for this must be as solid as a constitutional amendment, but that is going to be very, very difficult.
- retired 4mo ago
  Already happening. The official German identification app, AusweisApp, is designed exclusively for Android and Apple mobile devices
  - somethingweird 4mo ago
    No, you can also get it for Windows and Huawei devices. So three American and one Chinese companies. Great.
    - bigyabai 4mo ago
      With Salt Typhoon, that's a whole four ways to choose how China steals your data. And to think, people said consumer choice was dead...
  - ranger_danger 4mo ago
    If it was developed by the government, shouldn't the source or an API be available? Surely third-party apps can be made in that case?
    - poopooracoocoo 4mo ago
      That'd be great but governments often don't make specs and source code available. Governments don't make things open. The amount of stuff councils and state governments gatekeep about road specs alone... Argh.
  - lxgr 4mo ago
    > designed exclusively for Android and Apple mobile devices That's very different from requiring hardware attestation, though.
    - pseudalopex 4mo ago
      It is a little different. But not very different.
  - RandomGerm4n 4mo ago
lukashahnart 4mo ago
What do you use instead? iOS?
- Worf 4mo ago
  Sorry for the late reply. Right now I don't use Android (in any form) or iOS. I have a dumb phone for calls and SMS. I'm fortunate enough that I can keep it on mute for days. I don't really need a tiny computer right now. My desktops and laptops are more than enough.
palata 4mo ago
"Not using" doesn't make any noise. If you just "don't use", you will just use less and less stuff. Google doesn't give a shit, but smaller companies are the ones using reCAPTCHA and that kind of shit. Consumers need to complain to those smaller companies. And citizen need to complain to their government, if those case. In the EU there is the DMA: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en. What's sad is that the few citizen who care are often complaining against regulations. And it is the lack of regulations that got us here. We need antitrust, period.

by Worf 4mo ago

brikym 4mo ago

It's all fun until you can't get paid because some fintech app doesn't work. That's why we need regulations. I don't see politicians ever going against an advertising company when they're customers.

freedomben 4mo ago
Indeed, I generally favor being conservative with regulations because they can genuinely impede progress and can be really hard to change or remove when they're bad, but this is an issue that we need regulation for. It's just too much in the interest of big tech to lock us down and strip us of our freedom of compute. Short of regulation. Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong.
- pino83 4mo ago
  One unfortunate aspect of the entire problem: Go back, let's say 10, 15 or 20 years, when forces were a bit more balanced than today. When all these issues were already quite obvious, but probably somewhat easier to solve. The same people that cry loudly today were completely ignoring all these issues. Actively. And when someone came up with them, that guy was just an idi*t, disturbing the good mood. Right? I can still remember all the conversations that I had, or that I read. Today, they'll deny that and still call me an idiot. Anyways... PS: Sure, there always were a handful of exceptions. If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%.
  - dwedge 4mo ago
    So just to clarify, you also didn't solve anything but you want everyone to know you told them so and you were smarter? > If you are one of them, you know what I'm talking about. I don't refer to you. But to the other 99.x%. Reminds me of Facebook engagement bait
    - pino83 4mo ago
      > Reminds me of Facebook engagement bait If you say so. I don't know. I was never an active part of that big problem (so btw I also had nothing to "solve"). You were?
    - donmcronald 4mo ago
      I saw a lot of people get told they were too dumb to understand how the app stores or Adobe subscriptions were a good value proposition. A lot of people rolled in the mud and now they’re upset their clothes are dirty. If it didn’t affect those of us that tried to resist, I wouldn’t care, but we got dragged along unwillingly and now it may be impossible to hit the brakes before corporations control everything by usurping control of our identity systems.
      - pino83 4mo ago
        Oh, yeah, these discussions as well... Precisely. Good that some people are able to translate my thoughts into actual English... :D
- mikepurvis 4mo ago
  An easy first step ahead of a full ban would be insisting that hardware attestation never be used as a gate to access government services. Most other things I can vote with my feet, but viewing my tax returns or renewing my passport are things that can only happen in one place.
  - donmcronald 4mo ago
    This is really the most important thing for me. I don’t want to be obligated by law to use some identity or attestation service tied to big tech. I might be ok with my bank handling it because they already require ultimate trust, but not if they simply defer to big tech or implement infrastructure on foreign ccTLDs (id.me, verified.me, etc.). I’m Canadian and watching our government sell our souls to American tech companies is beyond scary.
    - mikepurvis 4mo ago
      Yes, Canadian here also and I feel the same. I'm pretty heavily Googled these days (gmail, gphotos, Pixel 10) and I work for a US tech company, so maybe I'm kidding myself that it matters much for me personally, but I'd be pretty sad if I ever found myself unable to access any level of government service because I didn't have a Google or Apple smartphone that I could point at a QR code on the screen.
- KPGv2 4mo ago
  > Unfortunately I see the regulatory environment more likely to go the other way of requiring attestation. I sure hope I'm wrong. Everyone in power wants it, across the entire globe.
- userbinator 4mo ago
  The sort of regulation we need for this must be as solid as a constitutional amendment, but that is going to be very, very difficult.
retired 4mo ago
Already happening. The official German identification app, AusweisApp, is designed exclusively for Android and Apple mobile devices
- somethingweird 4mo ago
  No, you can also get it for Windows and Huawei devices. So three American and one Chinese companies. Great.
  - bigyabai 4mo ago
    With Salt Typhoon, that's a whole four ways to choose how China steals your data. And to think, people said consumer choice was dead...
- ranger_danger 4mo ago
  If it was developed by the government, shouldn't the source or an API be available? Surely third-party apps can be made in that case?
  - poopooracoocoo 4mo ago
    That'd be great but governments often don't make specs and source code available. Governments don't make things open. The amount of stuff councils and state governments gatekeep about road specs alone... Argh.
- lxgr 4mo ago
  > designed exclusively for Android and Apple mobile devices That's very different from requiring hardware attestation, though.
  - pseudalopex 4mo ago
    It is a little different. But not very different.
- RandomGerm4n 4mo ago

lukashahnart 4mo ago

What do you use instead? iOS?

Worf 4mo ago
Sorry for the late reply. Right now I don't use Android (in any form) or iOS. I have a dumb phone for calls and SMS. I'm fortunate enough that I can keep it on mute for days. I don't really need a tiny computer right now. My desktops and laptops are more than enough.

palata 4mo ago

"Not using" doesn't make any noise. If you just "don't use", you will just use less and less stuff. Google doesn't give a shit, but smaller companies are the ones using reCAPTCHA and that kind of shit. Consumers need to complain to those smaller companies. And citizen need to complain to their government, if those case. In the EU there is the DMA: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/contact-dma-team_en. What's sad is that the few citizen who care are often complaining against regulations. And it is the lack of regulations that got us here. We need antitrust, period.