6 ms·

2 mm thicker and 58 grams heavier than the latest iPhone.

by kaiwn 5mo ago

toasty228 5mo ago
Oh yeah so it's utter trash and not worthy of our attention. Imagine carrying a whole 58 grams more, during a whole day, impossible for the average tech worker's atrophied muscles
- chroma 5mo ago
  The point is that people have different preferences, so the EU should not force people to buy phones with removable batteries. People who want such features can buy those phones, and people who want smaller, thinner phones can buy ones with integrated batteries. At most the EU should tax externalities like electronic waste, though that would be a rounding error compared to the cost of the phone itself.
  - john01dav 5mo ago
    Such phones with removable batteries are incredibly rare, such that finding one is quite likely to fail if you have any other concerns at all. If a truly well made phone was common and made by many people, then there'd be much less argument for this regulation.
    - chroma 5mo ago
      Phones with removable batteries are rare because only a small fraction of people want phones with removable batteries. Phone manufacturers also dislike removable batteries because customers buy cheap 3rd party batteries and complain when these batteries perform poorly or malfunction, sometimes by exploding. And then the headline is, “Phone made by company X explodes.” not, “Cheap battery explodes.” Removable batteries also introduce new failure modes like contacts degrading, causing phones to power off unexpectedly when jostled or flexed in certain ways. That increases the risk of a recall and bad PR. I and millions of others want a phone that is smaller than the current offerings. Heck, my 13 mini is too big for my tastes. But I don’t think that means the government should force phone manufacturers to make smaller phones. So too for features like removable batteries, physical keyboards, or headphone jacks.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5mo ago
      What do you mean by "rare"? You just click "order". It's not like you have to go on the quest for the lost arc or anything like that. They are uncommon in the sense that people don't actually get them, but that's not because of a lack of availability. People do not want them.
      - ToValueFunfetti 5mo ago
        They mean the models are rare, not the devices. The claim is if you want feature X + removable battery, it's unlikely that you will find it. People's willingness to forgo the battery for feature X therefore doesn't tell you if people care about removable batteries in an absolute sense, just that they care relatively less than they do about feature X. You could argue that the market already reflects people's desires via, eg., Apple's market research. They could argue that democracy in the EU also reflects people's desires.
    - School-Cotton 5mo ago
      They're rare because outside of the tiny minority of people who complain loudly on HN, nobody cares about this feature.
  - user_7832 5mo ago
    > The point is that people have different preferences, so the EU should not force people to buy phones with removable batteries. There are many food additives with very useful properties, but health effects. There are many perfumes too where the original formulation had a particular compound layer found to be carcinogenic. Regardless of whether an individual prefers to use such compounds at their own risk or not, large companies will use whatever is the cheapest ingredient for their product. In some cases, that's better for the consumer - who, often, has almost zero choice. (And if you think you truly have choice as a consumer, I challenge you to use a phone that isn't running either Apple or Google's code.)
    - nozzlegear 5mo ago
      > (And if you think you truly have choice as a consumer, I challenge you to use a phone that isn't running either Apple or Google's code.) Why doesn't this count as a choice? Was it more of a choice when Windows Phone was still around?
      - Nevermark 5mo ago
        > Was it more of a choice when Windows Phone was still around? Three viable options are by definition, more choice than two options.
        nozzlegear 5mo ago
        Sure, but it seems like the person I was replying to doesn't even consider two options to be a choice, so perhaps their choice framework has obscure criteria that you or I haven't been able to grok. That's why I asked.
      - user_7832 5mo ago
        My point or argument isn't that customers have absolutely zero choice, but that there are very few options out there. If (phone) OSes were truly healthy free markets, there would be a lot of healthy competition. Even cars and automobiles (which still are almost oligopolies, as it's extremely hard to compete) have more options. I said that sentence primarily as counter to anyone who thinks the mythical "free market" is a panacea to all ills, as many anti-EU folks often have such a view. I was trying to demonstrate that an unregulated market is (very) often unhealthy, and can paradoxically can result in viewer choices.
  - phoronixrly 5mo ago
    This has been repeated so so many times... How can you be sure that throwaway glued-together phones are thinner and lighter than repairable phones.. If there is any source of this information, it's vendors who have interest in phones being non-repairable so they can ship more units... How about vendors get on their asses and design thinner and lighter phones that are not e-waste from the moment they leave the factory? I bet you when forced to make the right decision they can go even thinner and lighter than the current flagships...
    - tracker1 5mo ago
      For that matter, I put a chonky case on my phone anyway... would rather have a sturdier phone that doesn't need an additional case that has the features I'd like, including an easily replaced/swapped battery. Beyond this, hell, make the "internal" battery solid-state with minimal capacity and have an external power pack from the get-go as part of case designs. Get the size of battery you want... if you want a big booty phone with battery for days, you can get it.
  - tracker1 5mo ago
    That assumes that the market itself is actually "free" and consistent and that there are no bad actors in the mix, and upstarts are allowed to freely start and compete. Given the regulations in the space that is emphatically not so. Incumbents will remove and enshitify a number of features in order to maximize returns... Your new clothes dryer has a 10 year mechanical warranty.. but the control board isn't covered, will die in 12-24 months and won't be produced again. Oh and there's some clunky DRM in the mix on top. Guess you get to buy a new dryer, but this time you'll go with $OtherShittyBrandThatDoesTheSameThing.
    - chroma 5mo ago
      Aren’t newer washers/dryers full of electronics because of laws mandating higher efficiency? My parents have an old Maytag washer that uses around 30 gallons per load while my washer uses less than 8. I know Speed Queen makes dumb laundry machines, but at least one of their models was banned for residential sale by the Department of Energy. They ended up figuring out a workaround by gimping the default cleaning mode and encouraging users to not use that mode.[1] But I don’t see how mandating removable batteries helps this situation with phones. I don’t replace my phone when the battery degrades, as it’s pretty cheap & painless to replace the battery after a few years. I upgrade when my phone stops getting security updates, or when a new phone comes along with some feature I want. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-review/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-revie...
      - tracker1 5mo ago
        I'm mostly with you.. my hope is to see more options with swapable batteries... I used to keep one on the charger and the other in my phone, then just swap them out when I leave the house. Not any time recently, but up until android/ios became pretty common.
  - bigbuppo 5mo ago
    We weren't given a choice in the first place.
  - toasty228 5mo ago
    Let me guess, the state asking you to use a seat belt is basically communism?
- kergonath 5mo ago
  FFS. Everything is a compromise. People who want smaller and lighter are not more wrong than those who want battery and physical protection.
  - cornyhorse 5mo ago
    Erm, I mean they kind of are given the massive externalities non user serviceable parts causes.
    - School-Cotton 5mo ago
      E-waste is a minuscule rounding error compared to all the other forms of environmental destruction modern industrial civilization causes. European countries are massive polluters and net carbon producers (though not quite as bad as the US); e-waste shouldn't even be on their radar since it is a distraction from almost infinitely more important environmental concerns. People complaining about this don't actually care about e-waste, they just talk about it because it's convenient for their argument.
      - toasty228 5mo ago
        Everything singled out is a minuscule form of environmental destruction, that's how they keep getting away with it
  - riversflow 5mo ago
    Earth's resources are finite, both in terms of raw materials and ability to absorb pollution. Stewardship of our resources entails the regulation of the things we create with those resources such that our collective consumption is conserved. Such oversight is both prudent, and as history and global outcomes teach, quite necessary.
    - kube-system 5mo ago
      I don't disagree with your statement, but an increase in design durability also does those things. A phone that you can drop and it doesn't break creates less pollution than a phone that you can drop and replace the screen.
- bartvk 5mo ago
  I get what you're saying but please be friendly here.
GuB-42 5mo ago
It is also a rugged phone. So if you want to make a fair comparison with an iPhone, you have to put the iPhone in a case, resulting in a similar weight and thickness.
- torginus 5mo ago
  Yeah the first thing everyone does with their new iPhones is put them in a case - at that point thinness doesn't matter, Id argue Apple counts on it, as their phones are awkward to hold otherwise. Replaceable covers used to serve the same purpose.
  - capitainenemo 5mo ago
    Indeed. I've had my XCover 6 for 3½ years now. I've dropped it many times, on hard surfaces (like outdoor concrete/brick). I've undoubtedly been fortunate. the plastic has gouges in it. there's (small) scratches on the screen (some from my keys), but the screen is not cracked. When it is dropped the back and battery pop off, which I think helps dissipate the forces. BTW, for anyone trying to extend their phone life, I strongly recommend those magnetic USB connectors. Reduces wear and tear on the USB port, and is also kinda convenient for quick disconnect.
    - GuB-42 5mo ago
      > I strongly recommend those magnetic USB connectors Note that these connectors are in violation of USB standard and potentially harmful as they expose the pins in an unintended way. For instance, notice that all the connection on the USB port are not all the same length, it is a form of protection, to make sure the power lines are well connected before the data lines make contact. With magnetic USB connectors, you lose that feature, in addition to potential issues with ESD, short circuits, etc... I have a friend who swears by them and never had a problem, but still, that's good to know.
      - Dylan16807 5mo ago
        You want to get everything grounded before the data wires connect. But that's more about the shroud than the pins as far as I understand it, and a magnetic connector could ensure grounding if it was designed to do so. And for charging purposes you could skip the data wires entirely.
MisterTea 5mo ago
The horror.
- nozzlegear 5mo ago
  This but unironically. People like thin and light flagship phones.
thomassmith65 5mo ago
Hooray! No more camera bump :)

2 mm thicker and 58 grams heavier than the latest iPhone.

by kaiwn 5mo ago

2 mm thicker and 58 grams heavier than the latest iPhone.

Oh yeah so it's utter trash and not worthy of our attention. Imagine carrying a whole 58 grams more, during a whole day, impossible for the average tech worker's atrophied muscles

chroma 5mo ago
The point is that people have different preferences, so the EU should not force people to buy phones with removable batteries. People who want such features can buy those phones, and people who want smaller, thinner phones can buy ones with integrated batteries. At most the EU should tax externalities like electronic waste, though that would be a rounding error compared to the cost of the phone itself.
- john01dav 5mo ago
  Such phones with removable batteries are incredibly rare, such that finding one is quite likely to fail if you have any other concerns at all. If a truly well made phone was common and made by many people, then there'd be much less argument for this regulation.
  - chroma 5mo ago
    Phones with removable batteries are rare because only a small fraction of people want phones with removable batteries. Phone manufacturers also dislike removable batteries because customers buy cheap 3rd party batteries and complain when these batteries perform poorly or malfunction, sometimes by exploding. And then the headline is, “Phone made by company X explodes.” not, “Cheap battery explodes.” Removable batteries also introduce new failure modes like contacts degrading, causing phones to power off unexpectedly when jostled or flexed in certain ways. That increases the risk of a recall and bad PR. I and millions of others want a phone that is smaller than the current offerings. Heck, my 13 mini is too big for my tastes. But I don’t think that means the government should force phone manufacturers to make smaller phones. So too for features like removable batteries, physical keyboards, or headphone jacks.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5mo ago
    What do you mean by "rare"? You just click "order". It's not like you have to go on the quest for the lost arc or anything like that. They are uncommon in the sense that people don't actually get them, but that's not because of a lack of availability. People do not want them.
    - ToValueFunfetti 5mo ago
      They mean the models are rare, not the devices. The claim is if you want feature X + removable battery, it's unlikely that you will find it. People's willingness to forgo the battery for feature X therefore doesn't tell you if people care about removable batteries in an absolute sense, just that they care relatively less than they do about feature X. You could argue that the market already reflects people's desires via, eg., Apple's market research. They could argue that democracy in the EU also reflects people's desires.
  - School-Cotton 5mo ago
    They're rare because outside of the tiny minority of people who complain loudly on HN, nobody cares about this feature.
- user_7832 5mo ago
  > The point is that people have different preferences, so the EU should not force people to buy phones with removable batteries. There are many food additives with very useful properties, but health effects. There are many perfumes too where the original formulation had a particular compound layer found to be carcinogenic. Regardless of whether an individual prefers to use such compounds at their own risk or not, large companies will use whatever is the cheapest ingredient for their product. In some cases, that's better for the consumer - who, often, has almost zero choice. (And if you think you truly have choice as a consumer, I challenge you to use a phone that isn't running either Apple or Google's code.)
  - nozzlegear 5mo ago
    > (And if you think you truly have choice as a consumer, I challenge you to use a phone that isn't running either Apple or Google's code.) Why doesn't this count as a choice? Was it more of a choice when Windows Phone was still around?
    - Nevermark 5mo ago
      > Was it more of a choice when Windows Phone was still around? Three viable options are by definition, more choice than two options.
      - nozzlegear 5mo ago
        Sure, but it seems like the person I was replying to doesn't even consider two options to be a choice, so perhaps their choice framework has obscure criteria that you or I haven't been able to grok. That's why I asked.
    - user_7832 5mo ago
      My point or argument isn't that customers have absolutely zero choice, but that there are very few options out there. If (phone) OSes were truly healthy free markets, there would be a lot of healthy competition. Even cars and automobiles (which still are almost oligopolies, as it's extremely hard to compete) have more options. I said that sentence primarily as counter to anyone who thinks the mythical "free market" is a panacea to all ills, as many anti-EU folks often have such a view. I was trying to demonstrate that an unregulated market is (very) often unhealthy, and can paradoxically can result in viewer choices.
- phoronixrly 5mo ago
  This has been repeated so so many times... How can you be sure that throwaway glued-together phones are thinner and lighter than repairable phones.. If there is any source of this information, it's vendors who have interest in phones being non-repairable so they can ship more units... How about vendors get on their asses and design thinner and lighter phones that are not e-waste from the moment they leave the factory? I bet you when forced to make the right decision they can go even thinner and lighter than the current flagships...
  - tracker1 5mo ago
    For that matter, I put a chonky case on my phone anyway... would rather have a sturdier phone that doesn't need an additional case that has the features I'd like, including an easily replaced/swapped battery. Beyond this, hell, make the "internal" battery solid-state with minimal capacity and have an external power pack from the get-go as part of case designs. Get the size of battery you want... if you want a big booty phone with battery for days, you can get it.
- tracker1 5mo ago
  That assumes that the market itself is actually "free" and consistent and that there are no bad actors in the mix, and upstarts are allowed to freely start and compete. Given the regulations in the space that is emphatically not so. Incumbents will remove and enshitify a number of features in order to maximize returns... Your new clothes dryer has a 10 year mechanical warranty.. but the control board isn't covered, will die in 12-24 months and won't be produced again. Oh and there's some clunky DRM in the mix on top. Guess you get to buy a new dryer, but this time you'll go with $OtherShittyBrandThatDoesTheSameThing.
  - chroma 5mo ago
    Aren’t newer washers/dryers full of electronics because of laws mandating higher efficiency? My parents have an old Maytag washer that uses around 30 gallons per load while my washer uses less than 8. I know Speed Queen makes dumb laundry machines, but at least one of their models was banned for residential sale by the Department of Energy. They ended up figuring out a workaround by gimping the default cleaning mode and encouraging users to not use that mode.[1] But I don’t see how mandating removable batteries helps this situation with phones. I don’t replace my phone when the battery degrades, as it’s pretty cheap & painless to replace the battery after a few years. I upgrade when my phone stops getting security updates, or when a new phone comes along with some feature I want. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-review/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-revie...
    - tracker1 5mo ago
      I'm mostly with you.. my hope is to see more options with swapable batteries... I used to keep one on the charger and the other in my phone, then just swap them out when I leave the house. Not any time recently, but up until android/ios became pretty common.
- bigbuppo 5mo ago
  We weren't given a choice in the first place.
- toasty228 5mo ago
  Let me guess, the state asking you to use a seat belt is basically communism?
kergonath 5mo ago
FFS. Everything is a compromise. People who want smaller and lighter are not more wrong than those who want battery and physical protection.
- cornyhorse 5mo ago
  Erm, I mean they kind of are given the massive externalities non user serviceable parts causes.
  - School-Cotton 5mo ago
    E-waste is a minuscule rounding error compared to all the other forms of environmental destruction modern industrial civilization causes. European countries are massive polluters and net carbon producers (though not quite as bad as the US); e-waste shouldn't even be on their radar since it is a distraction from almost infinitely more important environmental concerns. People complaining about this don't actually care about e-waste, they just talk about it because it's convenient for their argument.
    - toasty228 5mo ago
      Everything singled out is a minuscule form of environmental destruction, that's how they keep getting away with it
- riversflow 5mo ago
  Earth's resources are finite, both in terms of raw materials and ability to absorb pollution. Stewardship of our resources entails the regulation of the things we create with those resources such that our collective consumption is conserved. Such oversight is both prudent, and as history and global outcomes teach, quite necessary.
  - kube-system 5mo ago
    I don't disagree with your statement, but an increase in design durability also does those things. A phone that you can drop and it doesn't break creates less pollution than a phone that you can drop and replace the screen.
bartvk 5mo ago
I get what you're saying but please be friendly here.

GuB-42 5mo ago

It is also a rugged phone. So if you want to make a fair comparison with an iPhone, you have to put the iPhone in a case, resulting in a similar weight and thickness.

torginus 5mo ago
Yeah the first thing everyone does with their new iPhones is put them in a case - at that point thinness doesn't matter, Id argue Apple counts on it, as their phones are awkward to hold otherwise. Replaceable covers used to serve the same purpose.
- capitainenemo 5mo ago
  Indeed. I've had my XCover 6 for 3½ years now. I've dropped it many times, on hard surfaces (like outdoor concrete/brick). I've undoubtedly been fortunate. the plastic has gouges in it. there's (small) scratches on the screen (some from my keys), but the screen is not cracked. When it is dropped the back and battery pop off, which I think helps dissipate the forces. BTW, for anyone trying to extend their phone life, I strongly recommend those magnetic USB connectors. Reduces wear and tear on the USB port, and is also kinda convenient for quick disconnect.
  - GuB-42 5mo ago
    > I strongly recommend those magnetic USB connectors Note that these connectors are in violation of USB standard and potentially harmful as they expose the pins in an unintended way. For instance, notice that all the connection on the USB port are not all the same length, it is a form of protection, to make sure the power lines are well connected before the data lines make contact. With magnetic USB connectors, you lose that feature, in addition to potential issues with ESD, short circuits, etc... I have a friend who swears by them and never had a problem, but still, that's good to know.
    - Dylan16807 5mo ago
      You want to get everything grounded before the data wires connect. But that's more about the shroud than the pins as far as I understand it, and a magnetic connector could ensure grounding if it was designed to do so. And for charging purposes you could skip the data wires entirely.

MisterTea 5mo ago

The horror.

nozzlegear 5mo ago
This but unironically. People like thin and light flagship phones.

thomassmith65 5mo ago

Hooray! No more camera bump :)