7 ms·

Does anyone happen to know if it is settled law in the United States that transferring bitcoins using a cracked key is a criminal act? It’s not immediately obvi

Does anyone happen to know if it is settled law in the United States that transferring bitcoins using a cracked key is a criminal act? It’s not immediately obvious to me that it would be covered by the CFAA.

tshaddox 5mo ago
I would be surprised if the U.S. legal system requires itself to list every possible mechanism by which someone might steal money.
- Terr_ 5mo ago
  "Darn it, he's right, there's nothing in the rules here saying a dog can't play basketball or fetch money out of a bank vault..."
- hananova 5mo ago
  Bitcoins aren't money.
  - wmf 5mo ago
    They're property which is also illegal to steal.
  - greyface- 5mo ago
    18 U.S.C. § 2311 defines "money" in the context of stolen property as: > the legal tender of the United States or of any foreign country, or any counterfeit thereof Bitcoin has, at times, met this standard by being the legal tender of a foreign country.
    - hananova 5mo ago
      Wait, does that mean that counterfeit money is legally money in the US?
      - greyface- 5mo ago
        For the purpose of charging someone with a crime under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 113, yes.
  - tshaddox 5mo ago
    Good luck convincing the government that you aren’t guilty of money laundering because you used bitcoins.
    - hananova 5mo ago
      It’d be money laundering because money went in on one end, and money came out at the other end. Bitcoin would’ve been the vehicle yes. Still not money though. Something doesn’t have to be money to be involved in money laundering, obviously.
      - tshaddox 5mo ago
        Your legal analysis is very much incorrect. The U.S. will prosecute you for money laundering if you e.g. provide an illegal service, receive payment for that illegal service in bitcoins, then use a bitcoin mixing service, and then finally exchange your post-mixed bitcoins for goods. This is money laundering, despite there being no other money (like dollars) involved any step along the way. In fact, the U.S. has prosecuted and convicted people for money laundering simply for operating the bitcoin mixing service, which is clearly just bitcoins in and bitcoins out.
PowerElectronix 5mo ago
It's easy to argue that anyone can operate any wallet without restrictions but just pulling the right key to it. Every participant knows and accepts it the moment they pull a random key and start operating the corresponding wallet.

tshaddox 5mo ago

I would be surprised if the U.S. legal system requires itself to list every possible mechanism by which someone might steal money.

Terr_ 5mo ago
"Darn it, he's right, there's nothing in the rules here saying a dog can't play basketball or fetch money out of a bank vault..."
hananova 5mo ago
Bitcoins aren't money.
- wmf 5mo ago
  They're property which is also illegal to steal.
- greyface- 5mo ago
  18 U.S.C. § 2311 defines "money" in the context of stolen property as: > the legal tender of the United States or of any foreign country, or any counterfeit thereof Bitcoin has, at times, met this standard by being the legal tender of a foreign country.
  - hananova 5mo ago
    Wait, does that mean that counterfeit money is legally money in the US?
    - greyface- 5mo ago
      For the purpose of charging someone with a crime under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 113, yes.
- tshaddox 5mo ago
  Good luck convincing the government that you aren’t guilty of money laundering because you used bitcoins.
  - hananova 5mo ago
    It’d be money laundering because money went in on one end, and money came out at the other end. Bitcoin would’ve been the vehicle yes. Still not money though. Something doesn’t have to be money to be involved in money laundering, obviously.
    - tshaddox 5mo ago
      Your legal analysis is very much incorrect. The U.S. will prosecute you for money laundering if you e.g. provide an illegal service, receive payment for that illegal service in bitcoins, then use a bitcoin mixing service, and then finally exchange your post-mixed bitcoins for goods. This is money laundering, despite there being no other money (like dollars) involved any step along the way. In fact, the U.S. has prosecuted and convicted people for money laundering simply for operating the bitcoin mixing service, which is clearly just bitcoins in and bitcoins out.

PowerElectronix 5mo ago

It's easy to argue that anyone can operate any wallet without restrictions but just pulling the right key to it. Every participant knows and accepts it the moment they pull a random key and start operating the corresponding wallet.