6 ms·

> Maybe if there was work done to stop the shootings It's odd that you seem to believe no work has been done. Lots of work has been done. Lots more work is blo

by ern_ave 5mo ago

> Maybe if there was work done to stop the shootings It's odd that you seem to believe no work has been done. Lots of work has been done. Lots more work is blocked by people who steadfastly refuse to punish criminals - claiming instead that it's not their fault that they're violent. I'd love to hear any additional ideas you have other than violating the rights of citizens.

bko 5mo ago
I agree, most of the arguments have been basically "do anything" hysterics that are divorced from reality. For instance, much focus is given on rifles, specifically big black scary looking rifles. In reality if you look at murder rates by weapon type Handguns: ~45–50% Firearm (type unknown): ~20–25% Rifles: ~2–3% Shotguns: ~1–2% Knives / cutting instruments: ~10–12% Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.): ~3–5% Hands, fists, feet (“personal weapons”): ~3–5% Other (poison, fire, etc.): low single digits https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-most-commonly-used-for-homicides/ https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-m...
- JKCalhoun 5mo ago
  "…much focus is given on rifles, specifically big black scary looking rifles" Military-style rifles designed primarily for killing humans? That's called a low hanging fruit. If the U.S. can't even restrict those I expect everything else to be a wasted effort.
  - zetanor 5mo ago
    Military-style ARPANET designed primarily for nuclear warfare?
- throw0101d 5mo ago
  > In reality if you look at murder rates by weapon type What is the school shooting by weapon type? The 'general' mass shooting by weapon type?
  - bko 5mo ago
    > Many school shootings in the United States result in one non-fatal injury.[63] The type of firearm most commonly used in school shootings in the United States is the handgun. Three school shootings (the Columbine massacre, the Sandy Hook massacre, and the 2018 Parkland High School shooting in Florida), accounted for 43% of the fatalities; the type of firearm used in the most lethal school shootings was the rifle.[62] Note that this is shootings, so excludes murders by non guns. Rifles are not any more effective at murder than handguns. It's much easier to control, conceal, reload and attain a handgun. They're the preferred weapon of choice for practical reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
- jgwil2 5mo ago
  Plenty of people worked to ban handguns only to have it shut down by SCOTUS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
withinboredom 5mo ago
When I talk to my niece in the US and she says they have shooting drills instead of fire drills ... I think the US might be doing the wrong work.
ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
> I'd love to hear any additional ideas you have other than violating the rights of citizens. That's a strange take. There's citizens' rights involved in not being shot at and also the right to own guns, but when people are being killed, I would think that the right to life would take precedence over introducing some rule over gun ownership. Here in the UK, we have strict rules on gun ownership (which I'm not particularly familiar with) which involve some kind of assessment (to prevent unstable people from owning them) and the guns have to be kept in a suitable locked cabinet. It's entirely possible for people to own guns for sport or for culling animals etc. and yet we have a very small amount of gun crime.
- ern_ave 5mo ago
  > I would think that the right to life would take precedence Well, let's do a thought experiment to test this. Which of these two rights takes precedence: (1) life (specifically in this case, the right to not be murdered) or (2) freedom of movement That's an easy question, isn't it? (1) takes precedence. But how many 9's of protection are you willing to "purchase" at the expense of (2)? How much of (2) are you willing to give up in order to get a little more of (1)? If we reduce (2) to 0 ...by locking every person in a padded cell, then we can achieve 99.99% protection of (1). Presumably though, you don't like that idea. Presumably, you'll want to be let out of the padded cell, and get a bit of right (2) back. But giving you a bit of (2) back is going to cost someone their life! If we let you and others out of the padded cell, someone somewhere is going to get murdered. What this thought experiment demonstrates is that the issue is not as simple as, "(1) takes precedence over (2)" - the thought experiment demonstrates that there is an amount of (2) that you will not spend in order to purchase a marginal increase in (1) - a situation where (2) actually takes precedence. > Here in the UK, we have strict rules on gun ownership And I totally respect that. Just to be clear though, "gun ownership" isn't really the issue. Gun ownership is a proxy for the actual right: self defense. You place a low value on the right to defend yourself and your family. Again, I totally respect that. You've "spent" that right to purchase lower gun crime. Have I mentioned how much I respect your personal decision? As for me, I value the right to self defense above all. I've looked at the data, and I've realized that I'm much more likely to be stabbed or beaten to death than I am (well, was when I was in school) to be in a school shooting. So to me, having actually looked at that data, it seems obvious that the right to self defense should take precedence. I think that my way of thinking is perfectly rational, and I think you're way of thinking is not ...but I totally respect your personal decision. I'm sure you also respect mine.
dgroshev 5mo ago
"I'd love to hear any additional ideas except those that work everywhere because that'd require big changes" The answer is trivial and well-known: federal-level gun controls (because anything state-level is a joke without hard borders between states), coupled with a buy-back program, amnesties, and real enforcement. There are no school shootings in the UK or Australia. Unfortunately, there are too many people who'd rather have more guns and more dead kids (and adults) than fewer dead kids and fewer guns around. They'd justify that by talking about "preventing tyranny" or something, ignoring that paramilitaries executing people in broad daylight on camera with no consequences is already the reality of the US today, and guns played zero to negative role preventing that. Coincidentally, there are no such paramilitaries in the UK or in Australia either. As for "the rights of citizens": there is no such thing as an immutable unconditional right. American citizens don't have a right to own nuclear weapons, neither should they, even though it's perfectly possible to have a very expansive definition of "bearing arms". Plus, the Constitution itself was amended many times in the past, and by now is clearly in need of a major overhaul, as evidenced by the US sliding down in various democracy indices (for example, World Press Freedom Index puts the US under Romania in 2025). So there is nothing impossible or uniquely oppressive about the reforms necessary to stop children being shot in schools, but because it's such a foundational element of identity for so many with a lot of money behind it (the NRA is exceptionally well funded), in practice there's indeed "No Way to Prevent This".
- ern_ave 5mo ago
  > "I'd love to hear any additional ideas except those that work everywhere because that'd require big changes" When you pretend to quote someone, but you alter the quote, you're being dishonest. What you just did suggests that you don't really have any good arguments on your side - that you don't have any arguments that would stand on their own, without requiring a lie. So, if we were having a debate, I'd say that you lost.
  - dgroshev 5mo ago
    I'm not being dishonest, I'm being sarcastic. Although I can see that you ignored everything else that I said. I couldn't care less about "winning".
Zigurd 5mo ago
What work? We have more guns than ever.

by ern_ave 5mo ago

bko 5mo ago

I agree, most of the arguments have been basically "do anything" hysterics that are divorced from reality. For instance, much focus is given on rifles, specifically big black scary looking rifles. In reality if you look at murder rates by weapon type Handguns: ~45–50% Firearm (type unknown): ~20–25% Rifles: ~2–3% Shotguns: ~1–2% Knives / cutting instruments: ~10–12% Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.): ~3–5% Hands, fists, feet (“personal weapons”): ~3–5% Other (poison, fire, etc.): low single digits https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-most-commonly-used-for-homicides/ https://www.criminalattorneycolumbus.com/which-weapons-are-m...

JKCalhoun 5mo ago
"…much focus is given on rifles, specifically big black scary looking rifles" Military-style rifles designed primarily for killing humans? That's called a low hanging fruit. If the U.S. can't even restrict those I expect everything else to be a wasted effort.
- zetanor 5mo ago
  Military-style ARPANET designed primarily for nuclear warfare?
throw0101d 5mo ago
> In reality if you look at murder rates by weapon type What is the school shooting by weapon type? The 'general' mass shooting by weapon type?
- bko 5mo ago
  > Many school shootings in the United States result in one non-fatal injury.[63] The type of firearm most commonly used in school shootings in the United States is the handgun. Three school shootings (the Columbine massacre, the Sandy Hook massacre, and the 2018 Parkland High School shooting in Florida), accounted for 43% of the fatalities; the type of firearm used in the most lethal school shootings was the rifle.[62] Note that this is shootings, so excludes murders by non guns. Rifles are not any more effective at murder than handguns. It's much easier to control, conceal, reload and attain a handgun. They're the preferred weapon of choice for practical reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting
jgwil2 5mo ago
Plenty of people worked to ban handguns only to have it shut down by SCOTUS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

withinboredom 5mo ago

When I talk to my niece in the US and she says they have shooting drills instead of fire drills ... I think the US might be doing the wrong work.

ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago

> I'd love to hear any additional ideas you have other than violating the rights of citizens. That's a strange take. There's citizens' rights involved in not being shot at and also the right to own guns, but when people are being killed, I would think that the right to life would take precedence over introducing some rule over gun ownership. Here in the UK, we have strict rules on gun ownership (which I'm not particularly familiar with) which involve some kind of assessment (to prevent unstable people from owning them) and the guns have to be kept in a suitable locked cabinet. It's entirely possible for people to own guns for sport or for culling animals etc. and yet we have a very small amount of gun crime.

ern_ave 5mo ago
> I would think that the right to life would take precedence Well, let's do a thought experiment to test this. Which of these two rights takes precedence: (1) life (specifically in this case, the right to not be murdered) or (2) freedom of movement That's an easy question, isn't it? (1) takes precedence. But how many 9's of protection are you willing to "purchase" at the expense of (2)? How much of (2) are you willing to give up in order to get a little more of (1)? If we reduce (2) to 0 ...by locking every person in a padded cell, then we can achieve 99.99% protection of (1). Presumably though, you don't like that idea. Presumably, you'll want to be let out of the padded cell, and get a bit of right (2) back. But giving you a bit of (2) back is going to cost someone their life! If we let you and others out of the padded cell, someone somewhere is going to get murdered. What this thought experiment demonstrates is that the issue is not as simple as, "(1) takes precedence over (2)" - the thought experiment demonstrates that there is an amount of (2) that you will not spend in order to purchase a marginal increase in (1) - a situation where (2) actually takes precedence. > Here in the UK, we have strict rules on gun ownership And I totally respect that. Just to be clear though, "gun ownership" isn't really the issue. Gun ownership is a proxy for the actual right: self defense. You place a low value on the right to defend yourself and your family. Again, I totally respect that. You've "spent" that right to purchase lower gun crime. Have I mentioned how much I respect your personal decision? As for me, I value the right to self defense above all. I've looked at the data, and I've realized that I'm much more likely to be stabbed or beaten to death than I am (well, was when I was in school) to be in a school shooting. So to me, having actually looked at that data, it seems obvious that the right to self defense should take precedence. I think that my way of thinking is perfectly rational, and I think you're way of thinking is not ...but I totally respect your personal decision. I'm sure you also respect mine.

dgroshev 5mo ago

"I'd love to hear any additional ideas except those that work everywhere because that'd require big changes" The answer is trivial and well-known: federal-level gun controls (because anything state-level is a joke without hard borders between states), coupled with a buy-back program, amnesties, and real enforcement. There are no school shootings in the UK or Australia. Unfortunately, there are too many people who'd rather have more guns and more dead kids (and adults) than fewer dead kids and fewer guns around. They'd justify that by talking about "preventing tyranny" or something, ignoring that paramilitaries executing people in broad daylight on camera with no consequences is already the reality of the US today, and guns played zero to negative role preventing that. Coincidentally, there are no such paramilitaries in the UK or in Australia either. As for "the rights of citizens": there is no such thing as an immutable unconditional right. American citizens don't have a right to own nuclear weapons, neither should they, even though it's perfectly possible to have a very expansive definition of "bearing arms". Plus, the Constitution itself was amended many times in the past, and by now is clearly in need of a major overhaul, as evidenced by the US sliding down in various democracy indices (for example, World Press Freedom Index puts the US under Romania in 2025). So there is nothing impossible or uniquely oppressive about the reforms necessary to stop children being shot in schools, but because it's such a foundational element of identity for so many with a lot of money behind it (the NRA is exceptionally well funded), in practice there's indeed "No Way to Prevent This".

ern_ave 5mo ago
> "I'd love to hear any additional ideas except those that work everywhere because that'd require big changes" When you pretend to quote someone, but you alter the quote, you're being dishonest. What you just did suggests that you don't really have any good arguments on your side - that you don't have any arguments that would stand on their own, without requiring a lie. So, if we were having a debate, I'd say that you lost.
- dgroshev 5mo ago
  I'm not being dishonest, I'm being sarcastic. Although I can see that you ignored everything else that I said. I couldn't care less about "winning".

Zigurd 5mo ago

What work? We have more guns than ever.