6 ms·

That may be true elsewhere, but not in the US

by beedeebeedee 6mo ago

tptacek 6mo ago
Could you be more specific? I don't know what you're referring to.
- mold_aid 6mo ago
  Almost certain OP is referring to the fact that nurses and teachers are not well-paid or respected in the US, which I'd like to note as well. Despite this, Public Health as a pseudo-STEM major nearly ranks with STEM fields in general for majors seen as "workplace-ready." Maybe there are too many English majors (I honestly think the supply of careers is too low). But I think the "supply is greater than the demand" is possibly now more an explanatory argument for unemployment rates for Engineering and PT and other such quiescent majors. Certainly there are plenty of Ed majors for a field whose workers fled at pace earlier this decade. Let's assume I'm teaching 25 or so Engl majors right now in a class with publishing as its central focus (hypothetically) at a state school. The students would neither be able to define "small press" nor name the big 5 - even the ones who just came back from AWP. The linked piece, I think, correctly names the romanticized vision of publishing that is divorced from understandings of the cost of living in NYC. I don't also think that college majors are actually all that itchy to get into editorial, whether or not they're all and every single one applying for the same pool of jobs.
  - tptacek 6mo ago
    If the claim is "nurses and teachers are poorly paid in the US", that claim is broadly false. K-12 teachers in major metro areas in the US have surprisingly generous comp packages: well above area median take-home salary with predictable ladders, very good benefits, and defined-benefit pension plans. There are school districts where teachers are poorly compensated, but they aren't the norm over the population as a whole. Teachers are generally well-compensated. Nursing, I don't know where to start.
    - djoldman 6mo ago
      Folks may talk past each other on this. Some people may say that nurses and teachers ARE NOT well-paid because those workers deserve to be paid more than they are. Some people may say that nurses and teachers ARE well-paid because they are generally paid more than median wage. As for some dry facts, median wages: Registered Nurse $93,600 Public School Teacher $64,000 Private School Teacher $57,600 All U.S. Occupations $49,500 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm
      - tptacek 6mo ago
        Complexifiers for teaching: K12 cash comp in major population centers (CPS, SFUSD, Philly, MSP, &c) is sharply higher than that median, and, more importantly, teachers get a huge amount of non-cash comp. Can't say enough how valuable a defined-benefit pension is. All-in comp for a lot of rank-and-file K12 teachers in major metros is competitive with software development (in those regions; obviously excluding SFUSD).
        djoldman 6mo ago
        Oh for sure. Many people are surprised to learn how much more public teachers make than private teachers :) A ton of details that medians aren't showing. I was just mentioning why folks may be on different sides here. We should at least be talking about the same thing. If it's a "they deserve" conversation, that's very different than others.
        tptacek 6mo ago
        I think people can reasonably go back and forth about whether they should be more compensated, but I don't think there's a reasonable conversation to have about teaching not being a well-compensated career path. I know this surprises a lot of people. (My mom is a retired CPS teacher.)
        djoldman 6mo ago
wisty 6mo ago
Not hugely so. Teaching isn't paid megabucks but that's partly because it's a market for lemons - it's hard to tell a good one from a bad one (and people don't even agree in what it means to be educated, are facts or "critical thinking" more important, how about discipline vs temporary comfort) so there's no high paid super stars. There is a stereotype that teachers are low paid. Somewhat .... but there's a slight premium on doing meaningful work. The whole premise that women are paid far less is kind of wrong anyway (or at best another outdated stereotype). Childless men and women make about the same amount. Women with children work fewer hours and share finances with men who work more hours, and apparently this is an injustice.
- tptacek 6mo ago
  Outside of low-population rural school districts, the idea that teachers are poorly paid --- at least for the last 30 years or so --- comes from people not understanding the value of a defined-benefit pension plan (and, if you want to go that far, that people don't understand the interplay between an annual salary and a huge number of days off work).
  - wisty 5mo ago
    I think the holdiays are offset by the nature of the job - even the lasiest teachers actually have to show up and work, they don't just type "camera issue" in a WFH meeting then watch Netflix (or do something just as pointless and lazy in a face to face meeting). If you're comparing teachers to nurses, sure nurses tend to have more pay but more hours and harder work. But most jobs that you can do with a BA in English (or any other degree that isn't either extremely competitive like medicine, or in a really high demand field right now), teachers get (at least) similar pay, for a similar amount of work (albeit compressed into the school calender). Especially if you consider benefits, as you point out.
    - tptacek 5mo ago
      I think it's wild that the basis for comparison you have here is remote software developers in meetings. You know that everybody who works retail, manufacturing, hospitality, warehouses, and construction has to show up and work the same way, too? Yes: the kinds of people commenting on HN have it easier than just about anybody in the work force. That doesn't make us a reasonable bar for assessing the attractiveness of a job. Would you rather work as a teacher or a truck driver?

That may be true elsewhere, but not in the US

tptacek 6mo ago

Could you be more specific? I don't know what you're referring to.

mold_aid 6mo ago
Almost certain OP is referring to the fact that nurses and teachers are not well-paid or respected in the US, which I'd like to note as well. Despite this, Public Health as a pseudo-STEM major nearly ranks with STEM fields in general for majors seen as "workplace-ready." Maybe there are too many English majors (I honestly think the supply of careers is too low). But I think the "supply is greater than the demand" is possibly now more an explanatory argument for unemployment rates for Engineering and PT and other such quiescent majors. Certainly there are plenty of Ed majors for a field whose workers fled at pace earlier this decade. Let's assume I'm teaching 25 or so Engl majors right now in a class with publishing as its central focus (hypothetically) at a state school. The students would neither be able to define "small press" nor name the big 5 - even the ones who just came back from AWP. The linked piece, I think, correctly names the romanticized vision of publishing that is divorced from understandings of the cost of living in NYC. I don't also think that college majors are actually all that itchy to get into editorial, whether or not they're all and every single one applying for the same pool of jobs.
- tptacek 6mo ago
  If the claim is "nurses and teachers are poorly paid in the US", that claim is broadly false. K-12 teachers in major metro areas in the US have surprisingly generous comp packages: well above area median take-home salary with predictable ladders, very good benefits, and defined-benefit pension plans. There are school districts where teachers are poorly compensated, but they aren't the norm over the population as a whole. Teachers are generally well-compensated. Nursing, I don't know where to start.
  - djoldman 6mo ago
    Folks may talk past each other on this. Some people may say that nurses and teachers ARE NOT well-paid because those workers deserve to be paid more than they are. Some people may say that nurses and teachers ARE well-paid because they are generally paid more than median wage. As for some dry facts, median wages: Registered Nurse $93,600 Public School Teacher $64,000 Private School Teacher $57,600 All U.S. Occupations $49,500 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-finder.htm
    - tptacek 6mo ago
      Complexifiers for teaching: K12 cash comp in major population centers (CPS, SFUSD, Philly, MSP, &c) is sharply higher than that median, and, more importantly, teachers get a huge amount of non-cash comp. Can't say enough how valuable a defined-benefit pension is. All-in comp for a lot of rank-and-file K12 teachers in major metros is competitive with software development (in those regions; obviously excluding SFUSD).
      - djoldman 6mo ago
        Oh for sure. Many people are surprised to learn how much more public teachers make than private teachers :) A ton of details that medians aren't showing. I was just mentioning why folks may be on different sides here. We should at least be talking about the same thing. If it's a "they deserve" conversation, that's very different than others.
        tptacek 6mo ago
        I think people can reasonably go back and forth about whether they should be more compensated, but I don't think there's a reasonable conversation to have about teaching not being a well-compensated career path. I know this surprises a lot of people. (My mom is a retired CPS teacher.)
        djoldman 6mo ago

wisty 6mo ago

Not hugely so. Teaching isn't paid megabucks but that's partly because it's a market for lemons - it's hard to tell a good one from a bad one (and people don't even agree in what it means to be educated, are facts or "critical thinking" more important, how about discipline vs temporary comfort) so there's no high paid super stars. There is a stereotype that teachers are low paid. Somewhat .... but there's a slight premium on doing meaningful work. The whole premise that women are paid far less is kind of wrong anyway (or at best another outdated stereotype). Childless men and women make about the same amount. Women with children work fewer hours and share finances with men who work more hours, and apparently this is an injustice.

tptacek 6mo ago
Outside of low-population rural school districts, the idea that teachers are poorly paid --- at least for the last 30 years or so --- comes from people not understanding the value of a defined-benefit pension plan (and, if you want to go that far, that people don't understand the interplay between an annual salary and a huge number of days off work).
- wisty 5mo ago
  I think the holdiays are offset by the nature of the job - even the lasiest teachers actually have to show up and work, they don't just type "camera issue" in a WFH meeting then watch Netflix (or do something just as pointless and lazy in a face to face meeting). If you're comparing teachers to nurses, sure nurses tend to have more pay but more hours and harder work. But most jobs that you can do with a BA in English (or any other degree that isn't either extremely competitive like medicine, or in a really high demand field right now), teachers get (at least) similar pay, for a similar amount of work (albeit compressed into the school calender). Especially if you consider benefits, as you point out.
  - tptacek 5mo ago
    I think it's wild that the basis for comparison you have here is remote software developers in meetings. You know that everybody who works retail, manufacturing, hospitality, warehouses, and construction has to show up and work the same way, too? Yes: the kinds of people commenting on HN have it easier than just about anybody in the work force. That doesn't make us a reasonable bar for assessing the attractiveness of a job. Would you rather work as a teacher or a truck driver?