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Are you arguing that eventually a competitor will emerge that does support OpenClaw with a subscription model? Wouldn’t that just be more expensive for the exac

Are you arguing that eventually a competitor will emerge that does support OpenClaw with a subscription model? Wouldn’t that just be more expensive for the exact same reason Anthropic is banning it?

raincole 6mo ago
You mean whether another competitor will emerge? Right now we have OpenAI.
- rvz 6mo ago
  The real threat that Anthropic sees as real competitors in the long term, are the AI labs building open weight models, especially the AI labs in China.
techgnosis 6mo ago
Doesn't OpenAI allow this today?
- mil22 6mo ago
  It's a good way to win market share and build goodwill, but one has to wonder whether this class of usage is marginally profitable for them (or anyone) and how sustainable their lenient policies will be for them long term.
tekacs 6mo ago
OpenAI have literally gone out of their way to explicitly support this sort of thing. As they did with OpenCode. Honestly, this just looks like what Dylan of SemiAnalysis suggested on Dwarkesh – that they've massively under-provisioned capacity / under-spent on infrastructure. That would honestly be a comforting answer if true, because I would gladly take 'we can't afford to do this right now' over 'we are self-preferencing, and the FTC should really take a look at us, even if we're technically not a monopoly right now, since we're the only strongly-instruction-following model in town and we clearly know it'.
- gjsman-1000 6mo ago
  > we are self-preferencing, and the FTC should really take a look at us, even if we're technically not a monopoly right now Tell me you have zero clue what a monopoly is or what the law is, without telling me. Monopoly law relies on broad categories, not narrow ones. You can’t call Microsoft a monopoly because they are the only company that makes Windows. You can’t call Amazon a monopoly because they are the only company that makes AmazonBasics. You can’t call Anthropic a monopoly because their product is 20% better for your use case, otherwise by definition no company has any incentive to do a good job at anything.
  - tekacs 6mo ago
    Oh, give me a break. I know the law around this incredibly well. Reasonable people can disagree about whether the law is appropriate. The whole point of laws is that they should match intent – and as for '20%': "tell me you don't understand how a small quantitative gap can result in a step change in capability."
    - gjsman-1000 6mo ago
      > Oh, give me a break. I know the law around this incredibly well. Then don’t make BS up like implying Anthropic is a monopolist for the crime of competence. > tell me you don't understand how a small quantitative gap can result in a step change in capability The law does not give a darn about this. Being a good competitive option does not make you a league of your own. If I invent a new flavor of shake, the Emerald Slide, am I a monopolist in shakes because I’m the only one selling Emerald Slides? If you go and then start a local business reselling shakes and I’m your only supplier, am I a monopolist then? Absolutely not.
      - tekacs 6mo ago
        You do realize that I called out in my post they are absolutely not a monopoly by the law, right? I know all-too-well what the definition is. We have a similar situation in mobile where Apple may not be considered a monopoly, but people have walked around for a decade with a supercomputer in their pocket that is wildly underused. Things have gotten faster; things are different than they were decades ago when a lot of this was devised. The reality of the matter is that some of us just want to see innovation actually happen apace, and not see 5, 10, or 30 years of slowdown while we litigate whether or not such a company is holding all the cards, while everyone is collectively waiting at the spigot for a company to get its shit together because we're not allowed to fix the situation. For what it's worth, I'm hopeful that the other model providers will catch up and put us in a situation where this conversation is irrelevant. What I'm afraid of is a situation where we see continued divergence, and we end up with another Apple situation.
jfim 6mo ago
Some of the Chinese labs with cheaper per token costs do support it, like say minimax: https://agent.minimax.io/max-claw https://agent.minimax.io/max-claw I haven't tried it to see if it's any good but it's $20/mo.
msh 6mo ago
Kimi seems to support this with their 39 usd a month plan.

raincole 6mo ago

You mean whether another competitor will emerge? Right now we have OpenAI.

rvz 6mo ago
The real threat that Anthropic sees as real competitors in the long term, are the AI labs building open weight models, especially the AI labs in China.

techgnosis 6mo ago

Doesn't OpenAI allow this today?

mil22 6mo ago
It's a good way to win market share and build goodwill, but one has to wonder whether this class of usage is marginally profitable for them (or anyone) and how sustainable their lenient policies will be for them long term.

tekacs 6mo ago

OpenAI have literally gone out of their way to explicitly support this sort of thing. As they did with OpenCode. Honestly, this just looks like what Dylan of SemiAnalysis suggested on Dwarkesh – that they've massively under-provisioned capacity / under-spent on infrastructure. That would honestly be a comforting answer if true, because I would gladly take 'we can't afford to do this right now' over 'we are self-preferencing, and the FTC should really take a look at us, even if we're technically not a monopoly right now, since we're the only strongly-instruction-following model in town and we clearly know it'.

gjsman-1000 6mo ago
> we are self-preferencing, and the FTC should really take a look at us, even if we're technically not a monopoly right now Tell me you have zero clue what a monopoly is or what the law is, without telling me. Monopoly law relies on broad categories, not narrow ones. You can’t call Microsoft a monopoly because they are the only company that makes Windows. You can’t call Amazon a monopoly because they are the only company that makes AmazonBasics. You can’t call Anthropic a monopoly because their product is 20% better for your use case, otherwise by definition no company has any incentive to do a good job at anything.
- tekacs 6mo ago
  Oh, give me a break. I know the law around this incredibly well. Reasonable people can disagree about whether the law is appropriate. The whole point of laws is that they should match intent – and as for '20%': "tell me you don't understand how a small quantitative gap can result in a step change in capability."
  - gjsman-1000 6mo ago
    > Oh, give me a break. I know the law around this incredibly well. Then don’t make BS up like implying Anthropic is a monopolist for the crime of competence. > tell me you don't understand how a small quantitative gap can result in a step change in capability The law does not give a darn about this. Being a good competitive option does not make you a league of your own. If I invent a new flavor of shake, the Emerald Slide, am I a monopolist in shakes because I’m the only one selling Emerald Slides? If you go and then start a local business reselling shakes and I’m your only supplier, am I a monopolist then? Absolutely not.
    - tekacs 6mo ago
      You do realize that I called out in my post they are absolutely not a monopoly by the law, right? I know all-too-well what the definition is. We have a similar situation in mobile where Apple may not be considered a monopoly, but people have walked around for a decade with a supercomputer in their pocket that is wildly underused. Things have gotten faster; things are different than they were decades ago when a lot of this was devised. The reality of the matter is that some of us just want to see innovation actually happen apace, and not see 5, 10, or 30 years of slowdown while we litigate whether or not such a company is holding all the cards, while everyone is collectively waiting at the spigot for a company to get its shit together because we're not allowed to fix the situation. For what it's worth, I'm hopeful that the other model providers will catch up and put us in a situation where this conversation is irrelevant. What I'm afraid of is a situation where we see continued divergence, and we end up with another Apple situation.

jfim 6mo ago

Some of the Chinese labs with cheaper per token costs do support it, like say minimax: https://agent.minimax.io/max-claw https://agent.minimax.io/max-claw I haven't tried it to see if it's any good but it's $20/mo.

msh 6mo ago

Kimi seems to support this with their 39 usd a month plan.