8 ms·

This is exactly the situation I think of when I hear news of rescue missions. Running a rescue in a place with functional air defense is a recursive rescue prob

This is exactly the situation I think of when I hear news of rescue missions. Running a rescue in a place with functional air defense is a recursive rescue problem that could quickly get out of control.

zabzonk 6mo ago
The US did it all the time in Vietnam.
- jwilber 6mo ago
  …against the viet cong, where the biggest risk was the pilot getting pierced from small arms fire (in addition to the helo going down from pilot error). Quite different from the anti-air weapons modern day Iran possesses.
  - Edman274 6mo ago
    Are you aware that hundreds of American fixed wing aircraft were lost to surface to air missiles in North Vietnam? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._aircraft_losses_to_missiles_during_the_Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._aircraft_losses_t...
    - jwilber 6mo ago
      Ah yeah, well I didn’t know it was that high! But I’m responding to the rescue mission comment, which, since Vietnam, have overwhelmingly employed helicopters (Huey’s then, Black Hawks today). But machinery aside, the larger point is that air operations will likely go worse here than they did in Vietnam, unfortunately for both sides.
  - bigyabai 6mo ago
    Or a MiG-17 that could outrate your F-4/F-105 at every subsonic flight regime.
  - greedo 6mo ago
    You're conflating the Viet Cong with North Vietnam.
- ranger207 6mo ago
  And it did sometimes get way out of control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Bat_21_Bravo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Bat_21_Bravo
  - rkagerer 6mo ago
    Thanks for sharing, that's a crazy read.
  - wahern 6mo ago
    My neighbor was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, the one mentioned in this article who came back with over 100 bullet holes in his helicopter after the rescue operation: https://historynet.com/rescue-in-death-valley-with-hhm-163-the-evil-eyes/ https://historynet.com/rescue-in-death-valley-with-hhm-163-t... That rescue wasn't to retrieve a pilot, but nearly 200 surviving soldiers being overrun. It's difficult to squeeze stories out of him, mostly because it was so long ago and ancient history to him. Just to put his timeline in perspective, after the war he befriended a captain of the White Russian Navy who had to flee after losing the Russian Revolution. Alot of White Russians ended up in San Francisco, which is where my neighbor settled down in the '60s. He was also a military escort for Nelson Rockefeller, I think during one Rockefeller's campaigns. Once a staunch Republican, needless to say he's not a fan of where the Republican Party has ended up since then. Still a gung-ho Marine, though, who keeps insisting on climbing over our 10-foot fence whenever he locks himself out of his house, which means I have to jump the fence. Were it anyone else I'd just call and pay for a locksmith myself, or badger him to finally give me copies of his keys.
- onion2k 6mo ago
  That's an example of things getting out of control.
  - i_love_retros 6mo ago
    Possibly the best example
- harambae 6mo ago
  Not sure if it was actually used, but a fun idea for pilot recovery.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_ROE_Rotorcycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_ROE_Rotorcycle
  - jasomill 6mo ago
    The Fulton recovery system[1] using a self-inflating balloon was used in production. Though if Iranian air defenses are capable of shooting down an F-15, mounting a rescue operation with a C-130 may not be the brightest idea. Anyone know the minimum speed of a B-2? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery...
    - orbital-decay 6mo ago
      >Lifted off the ground, the pig began to spin as it flew through the air at 125 miles per hour (200 km/h). It arrived on board uninjured, but in a disoriented state. When it recovered, it attacked the crew. Understandable
    - XorNot 6mo ago
      Iranian Air defense getting lucky is different to it being impenetrable. This is not a binary situation, and a lucky F-15 kill would not make it a good idea to concentrate more assets in an area where the US will now focus more resources.
MikeTheGreat 6mo ago
Isn't that basically the plotline of the Blackhawk Down movie? And, more importantly, the real-life events on which it's based?
0cf8612b2e1e 6mo ago
Exactly what happens to me in Kerbel Space Program. Rescue team for the rescue team.
- wafflemaker 6mo ago
  Did you tactically forgot to put parachute on the landing pod? Or run out of fuel mid mission?
- downrightmike 6mo ago
  Slaps car, thsi baby can fit soo many rescue teams in it
- markovs_gun 6mo ago
  The first time I ever attempted a rescue mission in KSP, I ended up stranding 5 different kerbals in various orbita nearby trying to get the first one, and of course every one was a bigger and more complicated craft trying to save as many kerbals as possible. Eventually I just gave up and put a giant cross memorial in orbit, part as a reference to Neon Genesis Evangelion, and part as a memorial to the like 6 kerbals I left stranded in space.
  - verzali 6mo ago
    Kerbals don't need food or water and can live forever on a limited air supply. I once rescued a kerbal who got stuck around their equivalent of Venus for multiple years. So it's all fine, they'll patiently wait...
alonethrowaway 6mo ago
I imagine Trump would threaten to nuke a major city if it didnt stop and pilots werent returned safe. Not that I agree, but I think that's what he would emotionally do.

zabzonk 6mo ago

The US did it all the time in Vietnam.

jwilber 6mo ago
…against the viet cong, where the biggest risk was the pilot getting pierced from small arms fire (in addition to the helo going down from pilot error). Quite different from the anti-air weapons modern day Iran possesses.
- Edman274 6mo ago
  Are you aware that hundreds of American fixed wing aircraft were lost to surface to air missiles in North Vietnam? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._aircraft_losses_to_missiles_during_the_Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._aircraft_losses_t...
  - jwilber 6mo ago
    Ah yeah, well I didn’t know it was that high! But I’m responding to the rescue mission comment, which, since Vietnam, have overwhelmingly employed helicopters (Huey’s then, Black Hawks today). But machinery aside, the larger point is that air operations will likely go worse here than they did in Vietnam, unfortunately for both sides.
- bigyabai 6mo ago
  Or a MiG-17 that could outrate your F-4/F-105 at every subsonic flight regime.
- greedo 6mo ago
  You're conflating the Viet Cong with North Vietnam.
ranger207 6mo ago
And it did sometimes get way out of control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Bat_21_Bravo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Bat_21_Bravo
- rkagerer 6mo ago
  Thanks for sharing, that's a crazy read.
- wahern 6mo ago
  My neighbor was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, the one mentioned in this article who came back with over 100 bullet holes in his helicopter after the rescue operation: https://historynet.com/rescue-in-death-valley-with-hhm-163-the-evil-eyes/ https://historynet.com/rescue-in-death-valley-with-hhm-163-t... That rescue wasn't to retrieve a pilot, but nearly 200 surviving soldiers being overrun. It's difficult to squeeze stories out of him, mostly because it was so long ago and ancient history to him. Just to put his timeline in perspective, after the war he befriended a captain of the White Russian Navy who had to flee after losing the Russian Revolution. Alot of White Russians ended up in San Francisco, which is where my neighbor settled down in the '60s. He was also a military escort for Nelson Rockefeller, I think during one Rockefeller's campaigns. Once a staunch Republican, needless to say he's not a fan of where the Republican Party has ended up since then. Still a gung-ho Marine, though, who keeps insisting on climbing over our 10-foot fence whenever he locks himself out of his house, which means I have to jump the fence. Were it anyone else I'd just call and pay for a locksmith myself, or badger him to finally give me copies of his keys.
onion2k 6mo ago
That's an example of things getting out of control.
- i_love_retros 6mo ago
  Possibly the best example
harambae 6mo ago
Not sure if it was actually used, but a fun idea for pilot recovery.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_ROE_Rotorcycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiller_ROE_Rotorcycle
- jasomill 6mo ago
  The Fulton recovery system[1] using a self-inflating balloon was used in production. Though if Iranian air defenses are capable of shooting down an F-15, mounting a rescue operation with a C-130 may not be the brightest idea. Anyone know the minimum speed of a B-2? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery...
  - orbital-decay 6mo ago
    >Lifted off the ground, the pig began to spin as it flew through the air at 125 miles per hour (200 km/h). It arrived on board uninjured, but in a disoriented state. When it recovered, it attacked the crew. Understandable
  - XorNot 6mo ago
    Iranian Air defense getting lucky is different to it being impenetrable. This is not a binary situation, and a lucky F-15 kill would not make it a good idea to concentrate more assets in an area where the US will now focus more resources.

MikeTheGreat 6mo ago

Isn't that basically the plotline of the Blackhawk Down movie? And, more importantly, the real-life events on which it's based?

0cf8612b2e1e 6mo ago

Exactly what happens to me in Kerbel Space Program. Rescue team for the rescue team.

wafflemaker 6mo ago
Did you tactically forgot to put parachute on the landing pod? Or run out of fuel mid mission?
downrightmike 6mo ago
Slaps car, thsi baby can fit soo many rescue teams in it
markovs_gun 6mo ago
The first time I ever attempted a rescue mission in KSP, I ended up stranding 5 different kerbals in various orbita nearby trying to get the first one, and of course every one was a bigger and more complicated craft trying to save as many kerbals as possible. Eventually I just gave up and put a giant cross memorial in orbit, part as a reference to Neon Genesis Evangelion, and part as a memorial to the like 6 kerbals I left stranded in space.
- verzali 6mo ago
  Kerbals don't need food or water and can live forever on a limited air supply. I once rescued a kerbal who got stuck around their equivalent of Venus for multiple years. So it's all fine, they'll patiently wait...

alonethrowaway 6mo ago

I imagine Trump would threaten to nuke a major city if it didnt stop and pilots werent returned safe. Not that I agree, but I think that's what he would emotionally do.