6 ms·

Every war since Korea, we’re very used to this.

by MarkMarine 6mo ago

surgical_fire 6mo ago
The other wars were woke. This is not a woke war. I wish I was joking.
- ray__ 6mo ago
  Care to elaborate on this?
  - surgical_fire 6mo ago
    "No stupid rules of engagement, no nation-building quagmire, no democracy-building exercise, no politically-correct wars. We fight to win,” Hegseth said." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/iran-strikes-trump-hegseth-speech-b2930211.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
    - cardiffspaceman 6mo ago
      What’s the value of having a civilian SecDef if he blathers on like this?
      - TheOtherHobbes 6mo ago
        It's a self-soothing performance of self-importance, like everything else this administration does. This is not an administration run by adults who model consequences. Everything happens to reassure the Commander in Chief - and the people behind him, like Miller and Vought - that they're exceptionally special and gifted people who can have anything they want and do anything they want, to anyone, without limits.
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
      - wat10000 6mo ago
        There's pretty clearly negative value in having civilian leader whose most notable accomplishments are being a TV opinion host, and quitting the Army because they decided he was too dangerous to be allowed to serve as a guard for a presidential inauguration.
    - croes 6mo ago
      To win what? Because it’s not a war and not a game. So what else can be won?
      - bulbar 6mo ago
        Elections. I don't think anything else really matters to them (except power and money, of course).
      - y-curious 6mo ago
        To understand this rhetoric, you have to understand how important American Football is to the majority of the voting American public. We love a team that hits hard and wins the trophy! The good guys winning! What’s better? Have you seen any of the Marvel movies? The objective good guys always win! Win win win That’s why he uses such language
        franktankbank 6mo ago
        I live in a deeply rural area. Nobody is like this in regards to war. I wish I could put on blast the deep worry I see everyday. Perhaps there is a cultural difference between the rural and red cities? It's hard not to take note of drafting the entirety of your young family to go shoot guns and die even if it was 100 years ago.
    - littlestymaar 6mo ago
      What does this have to do with “Woke”? This is just stupid, you cannot “fight to win” if you don't have a theory of victory. And if you adopt Russian doctrines all you'll end up with is Russian military efficiency.
- MarkMarine 6mo ago
  I know you're not. I've found that most of our population has almost no connection to the people that actually fight wars, and therefore have no idea what they think. With the exception of a few criminals, none of us desire to commit war crimes. None of us want to send rounds into civilian infrastructure, seeing regular people struggle to get food, fuel, and water in Iraq did not make me feel powerful and it was obvious it did not advance our goals on the ground. The jingoistic commentary people hear from politicians and former military podcasters that don't fight anymore is repugnant, and this backsliding in the (at least attempt at) honorable execution of war is not going to bode well for our country. It's probably trite when we're double tapping girl's schools, but I want to think that purposely striking civilian infrastructure, universities, hospitals, water resources... this was all something "we" didn't do. This is actively devaluing the meaning of being a Marine. Maybe this already happened in Mai Lai, maybe this was further chipped away by Abu Ghraib, maybe letting Eddie Gallagher off... etc etc. But this feels different in a way I've never felt before.
  - Bud 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - propagandist 6mo ago
    Thank you for expressing your humanistic thoughts, but do consider the history of the institution and the government. What's different this time is that they haven't bothered with the PR.
  - kelnos 6mo ago
    Why do it, then? I'm not trying to be inflammatory or ask loaded questions here, I'm genuinely curious (as someone who, as you note, has almost no connection to the Americans who fight in wars; I have friends who are vets, but have been out of the military for years), and I just don't understand. I absolutely believe you when you say that none of y'all want to commit war crimes, fire on civilian infra, bomb schools, etc. And yet that's happening right now, in Iran, and the soldiers continue to follow orders and carry out this travesty. I get that refusing an order is not something any soldier will do lightly, but when a school gets hit in Iran, do the soldiers conducting that strike not know what they're attacking beforehand? Even if they don't, do they never find out? Do they not see that some large N% of targets that have been hit have ended up being civilian targets? When they're ordered to fire on a new target, do they not question whether or not it's a civilian target, given past history? I ask these questions from near-complete ignorance; I really do not know how this works, or what kind of information any officer or soldier has when they're about to follow the orders they've been given. But it just seems insane to me that people continue to follow these orders, assuming they know how many civilians have been killed through previous actions. I just cannot imagine being in their position, and actually trusting that my superior officers were ordering me to do things that will later turn out to be morally defensible. (If any of this war is morally defensible, which I don't think it is.)
- cjbgkagh 6mo ago
  It’s not not woke, it’s wokeness of a different kind. They exclude those who disagree with their brand of orthodoxy, it seems like to me they’re firing anyone who says no to the ground invasion.
themafia 6mo ago
Maybe you shouldn't be.

Every war since Korea, we’re very used to this.

surgical_fire 6mo ago

The other wars were woke. This is not a woke war. I wish I was joking.

ray__ 6mo ago
Care to elaborate on this?
- surgical_fire 6mo ago
  "No stupid rules of engagement, no nation-building quagmire, no democracy-building exercise, no politically-correct wars. We fight to win,” Hegseth said." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/iran-strikes-trump-hegseth-speech-b2930211.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
  - cardiffspaceman 6mo ago
    What’s the value of having a civilian SecDef if he blathers on like this?
    - TheOtherHobbes 6mo ago
      It's a self-soothing performance of self-importance, like everything else this administration does. This is not an administration run by adults who model consequences. Everything happens to reassure the Commander in Chief - and the people behind him, like Miller and Vought - that they're exceptionally special and gifted people who can have anything they want and do anything they want, to anyone, without limits.
      - deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
    - wat10000 6mo ago
      There's pretty clearly negative value in having civilian leader whose most notable accomplishments are being a TV opinion host, and quitting the Army because they decided he was too dangerous to be allowed to serve as a guard for a presidential inauguration.
  - croes 6mo ago
    To win what? Because it’s not a war and not a game. So what else can be won?
    - bulbar 6mo ago
      Elections. I don't think anything else really matters to them (except power and money, of course).
    - y-curious 6mo ago
      To understand this rhetoric, you have to understand how important American Football is to the majority of the voting American public. We love a team that hits hard and wins the trophy! The good guys winning! What’s better? Have you seen any of the Marvel movies? The objective good guys always win! Win win win That’s why he uses such language
      - franktankbank 6mo ago
        I live in a deeply rural area. Nobody is like this in regards to war. I wish I could put on blast the deep worry I see everyday. Perhaps there is a cultural difference between the rural and red cities? It's hard not to take note of drafting the entirety of your young family to go shoot guns and die even if it was 100 years ago.
  - littlestymaar 6mo ago
    What does this have to do with “Woke”? This is just stupid, you cannot “fight to win” if you don't have a theory of victory. And if you adopt Russian doctrines all you'll end up with is Russian military efficiency.
MarkMarine 6mo ago
I know you're not. I've found that most of our population has almost no connection to the people that actually fight wars, and therefore have no idea what they think. With the exception of a few criminals, none of us desire to commit war crimes. None of us want to send rounds into civilian infrastructure, seeing regular people struggle to get food, fuel, and water in Iraq did not make me feel powerful and it was obvious it did not advance our goals on the ground. The jingoistic commentary people hear from politicians and former military podcasters that don't fight anymore is repugnant, and this backsliding in the (at least attempt at) honorable execution of war is not going to bode well for our country. It's probably trite when we're double tapping girl's schools, but I want to think that purposely striking civilian infrastructure, universities, hospitals, water resources... this was all something "we" didn't do. This is actively devaluing the meaning of being a Marine. Maybe this already happened in Mai Lai, maybe this was further chipped away by Abu Ghraib, maybe letting Eddie Gallagher off... etc etc. But this feels different in a way I've never felt before.
- Bud 6mo ago
  [dead]
- propagandist 6mo ago
  Thank you for expressing your humanistic thoughts, but do consider the history of the institution and the government. What's different this time is that they haven't bothered with the PR.
- kelnos 6mo ago
  Why do it, then? I'm not trying to be inflammatory or ask loaded questions here, I'm genuinely curious (as someone who, as you note, has almost no connection to the Americans who fight in wars; I have friends who are vets, but have been out of the military for years), and I just don't understand. I absolutely believe you when you say that none of y'all want to commit war crimes, fire on civilian infra, bomb schools, etc. And yet that's happening right now, in Iran, and the soldiers continue to follow orders and carry out this travesty. I get that refusing an order is not something any soldier will do lightly, but when a school gets hit in Iran, do the soldiers conducting that strike not know what they're attacking beforehand? Even if they don't, do they never find out? Do they not see that some large N% of targets that have been hit have ended up being civilian targets? When they're ordered to fire on a new target, do they not question whether or not it's a civilian target, given past history? I ask these questions from near-complete ignorance; I really do not know how this works, or what kind of information any officer or soldier has when they're about to follow the orders they've been given. But it just seems insane to me that people continue to follow these orders, assuming they know how many civilians have been killed through previous actions. I just cannot imagine being in their position, and actually trusting that my superior officers were ordering me to do things that will later turn out to be morally defensible. (If any of this war is morally defensible, which I don't think it is.)
cjbgkagh 6mo ago
It’s not not woke, it’s wokeness of a different kind. They exclude those who disagree with their brand of orthodoxy, it seems like to me they’re firing anyone who says no to the ground invasion.

themafia 6mo ago

Maybe you shouldn't be.