6 ms·

Is this lang for web dev?

emoII 6mo ago
Yes, as ClojureScript
embedding-shape 6mo ago
Yes, web development is a pleasure with Clojure. On the backend side, you start your server once, and whenever you change it locally, you apply what you changed directly to the running process, so you don't lose any state and without having to restart the server at all, so iterating on the program becomes very easy. Bugs are easy to track down too, as you can evaluate parts ("forms") of the program inside the process itself, debugging becomes a breeze. On the frontend side, you have ClojureScript that basically enables the same but in a browser environment. Usually I have the browser on the right, my editor on the left, and whenever I "evaluate a function", it runs in the browser context, so again same thing; the frontend keeps the same state even after your changes, so no more "make change -> wait for compilation -> get frontend into the state that reproduces the issue -> output debug info -> make change again", you just change one part, see the page update and then continue changing. If you've used React+Redux (or similar) before, it's basically that experience, but much tighter and together with code evaluation inside of the browser context. If I recall correctly, Redux was pretty much directly inspired by ClojureScript and Reagent in the first place, I think Abramov even referenced ClojureScritp/Reagent in the first Redux talk.
midnight_eclair 6mo ago
clojure itself is a joy to use, on the web or outside of it BUT it doesn't have the equivalent of rails, mostly because lispers are an opinionated bunch and can't come together to agree on how web development should be done the frameworks that do exist are more of a collections of libraries with some plumbing to connect the dots
- embedding-shape 6mo ago
  Which in reality isn't a problem, once you absorb the ideas of Clojure and try to apply them when using Clojure. Composition of well picked libraries beat batteries-included frameworks for most use cases, both short term and long term, at least in 99% of the cases I'm writing Clojure/Script code.
  - joshlemer 6mo ago
    I think it actually is a pretty big problem. "Once you absorb the ideas of Clojure" takes months or years to fully get. Composing libraries yourself, like your comment says, requires that they are "well-picked". Stitching together separate libraries is really time consuming and a distraction from the project you're trying to build. It also results in pointless thrashing within a team as everyone has become personally invested in their own mosaic of hand-selected libraries for every little thing. By the time a beginner learning Clojure has researched and put together their web stack and got it all hooked up and is ready to start, the Django developer already shipped their project last quarter, iterated on it a few times, and is on to the next thing. One big library/framework has huge benefits and network effects, from enabling a big 3rd party plugin ecosystem, to a deeper documentation literature (including paid courses, books, and AI). It means that there's less or virtually zero getting up to speed when changing from one project to an other. It means that the upstream framework team takes care of upgrades whereas you have to consider, when a new technology comes up, how to integrate this into your stack. There's a reason that Laravel, Django, Rails, and Spring each have thousands or hundreds-of-thousands of times more websites in production than all of Clojure combined. At a meta/discourse level, I also find the Clojure community's tendency to constantly deny and downplay any criticism or even just issue that people face to be really frustrating and counter productive.
    - midnight_eclair 6mo ago
      yep, every word.
    - jimbokun 6mo ago
      Have you seen this? https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/
      - joshlemer 6mo ago
        Yep
        6mo ago
- jimbokun 6mo ago
  Yes, huge selling point in favor of Clojure!
  - midnight_eclair 6mo ago
    it really isn't, unless your goal is to scare away the casuals.

emoII 6mo ago

Yes, as ClojureScript

Yes, web development is a pleasure with Clojure. On the backend side, you start your server once, and whenever you change it locally, you apply what you changed directly to the running process, so you don't lose any state and without having to restart the server at all, so iterating on the program becomes very easy. Bugs are easy to track down too, as you can evaluate parts ("forms") of the program inside the process itself, debugging becomes a breeze. On the frontend side, you have ClojureScript that basically enables the same but in a browser environment. Usually I have the browser on the right, my editor on the left, and whenever I "evaluate a function", it runs in the browser context, so again same thing; the frontend keeps the same state even after your changes, so no more "make change -> wait for compilation -> get frontend into the state that reproduces the issue -> output debug info -> make change again", you just change one part, see the page update and then continue changing. If you've used React+Redux (or similar) before, it's basically that experience, but much tighter and together with code evaluation inside of the browser context. If I recall correctly, Redux was pretty much directly inspired by ClojureScript and Reagent in the first place, I think Abramov even referenced ClojureScritp/Reagent in the first Redux talk.

midnight_eclair 6mo ago

clojure itself is a joy to use, on the web or outside of it BUT it doesn't have the equivalent of rails, mostly because lispers are an opinionated bunch and can't come together to agree on how web development should be done the frameworks that do exist are more of a collections of libraries with some plumbing to connect the dots

embedding-shape 6mo ago
Which in reality isn't a problem, once you absorb the ideas of Clojure and try to apply them when using Clojure. Composition of well picked libraries beat batteries-included frameworks for most use cases, both short term and long term, at least in 99% of the cases I'm writing Clojure/Script code.
- joshlemer 6mo ago
  I think it actually is a pretty big problem. "Once you absorb the ideas of Clojure" takes months or years to fully get. Composing libraries yourself, like your comment says, requires that they are "well-picked". Stitching together separate libraries is really time consuming and a distraction from the project you're trying to build. It also results in pointless thrashing within a team as everyone has become personally invested in their own mosaic of hand-selected libraries for every little thing. By the time a beginner learning Clojure has researched and put together their web stack and got it all hooked up and is ready to start, the Django developer already shipped their project last quarter, iterated on it a few times, and is on to the next thing. One big library/framework has huge benefits and network effects, from enabling a big 3rd party plugin ecosystem, to a deeper documentation literature (including paid courses, books, and AI). It means that there's less or virtually zero getting up to speed when changing from one project to an other. It means that the upstream framework team takes care of upgrades whereas you have to consider, when a new technology comes up, how to integrate this into your stack. There's a reason that Laravel, Django, Rails, and Spring each have thousands or hundreds-of-thousands of times more websites in production than all of Clojure combined. At a meta/discourse level, I also find the Clojure community's tendency to constantly deny and downplay any criticism or even just issue that people face to be really frustrating and counter productive.
  - midnight_eclair 6mo ago
    yep, every word.
  - jimbokun 6mo ago
    Have you seen this? https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/
    - joshlemer 6mo ago
      Yep
      - 6mo ago
jimbokun 6mo ago
Yes, huge selling point in favor of Clojure!
- midnight_eclair 6mo ago
  it really isn't, unless your goal is to scare away the casuals.