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Musketeer d'Artagnan's remains believed found under Dutch church
- jbgreer 6mo agoDarn it. I literally just passed through and transferred trains in Maastricht in the last 2 weeks. What with the “anytime today” flexibility of Dutch and Belgian train travel, I would have loved to make a visit to the church a side quest.
- brightball 6mo agoHold on…that was an entirely fictional story? Is there some part of it that was based on real people?
- bena 6mo agoSame here. I thought it was completely fictional. So, I immediately looked it up. There was a real d'Artagnan, he was kind of a big deal, so Dumas wrote some stories based on a fictionalized version of the real d'Artagnan.
- bigstrat2003 6mo agoWow, that's really cool. I knew that Cardinal Richelieu was a real person (and that he is credited with inventing the butter knife!), but I didn't realize there were others.
- fusslo 6mo agoD'Artagnan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Batz_de_Castelmore_d%27Artagnan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Batz_de_Castelmore_... Cardinal Mazarin - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Mazarin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Mazarin Athos - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_d%27Athos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_d%27Athos Porthos - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_de_Porthau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_de_Porthau Aramis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_d%27Aramitz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_d%27Aramitz Comte de Troisville (D'artagnan's mentor) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comte_de_Troisville https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comte_de_Troisville All highly fictionalized and I have had trouble finding information on the real counterparts (aside from the Cardinal). I started learning about that period of history after listening to the D'Artagnan Romances in audiobook form. The other interesting thing is Gatien de Courtilz de Sanras wrote semi-fictional accounts of D'Artagnan, published 27 years after D'artagnan's death and 144 years before Dumas' The Three Musketeers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatien_de_Courtilz_de_Sandras https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatien_de_Courtilz_de_Sandras ).
- hodgesrm 6mo agoDon't forget the Duke of Buckingham - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Villiers,_1st_Duke_of_Buckingham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Villiers,_1st_Duke_of_B.... Dumas' fictionalized version was far better than the real person.
- kergonath 6mo ago> I knew that Cardinal Richelieu was a real person And he was more than a big deal. One of the most powerful people in Europe at the time.
- expedition32 6mo agoMaastricht today is not a French city. The city was returned after a peace treaty. A hero and a heroic death in a pointless war.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- lo_zamoyski 6mo agoI had a similar experience with the characters in Sienkiewicz's Trilogy. A number of the fictional characters were amalgamations of actual historical figures, with added or modified histories. For example, the character of Sir Wołodyjowski is actually drawn from two figures with the same surname. (For those interested, Jerzy Hoffman has produced excellent film adaptations of these books, two while navigating communist censorship, which is why they were filmed in reverse order. In reading order: - "With Fire and Sword" (1999) [1] - "The Deluge" (1974) [0] (trailer for the significantly shortened 2014 director's cut [3]) - "The Colonel Wołodyjowski" [2] In my opinion, and this is widely regarded to be the case, the original 5+ hour "The Deluge" is the best of the three and frankly one of the best movies I've ever watched.) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqdrKEEt_nc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqdrKEEt_nc [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCESk2joFo8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCESk2joFo8 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFO4O4JNjXw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFO4O4JNjXw [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBfhvt1zrfU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBfhvt1zrfU
- brightball 6mo agoI read the original Dumas story a few years back. Never had any idea.
- rags2riches 6mo agoSome Swedes will be delighted to learn that not only was there a historical d'Artagnan, but also a real life cardinal named Mazarin. But I have yet to find a historical person named Loranga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loranga,_Masarin_och_Dartanjang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loranga,_Masarin_och_Dartanjan...
- Bayart 6mo agoThere were in fact two Mazarin cardinals. The one people know about, who happened to be one of the major statesmen in Europe at the time, and his brother who was notoriously useless.
- Ylpertnodi 6mo ago> his brother who was notoriously useless. So, he became a priest? (Father Ted [a literary classic] reference)
- throw0101d 6mo ago> So, he became a priest? (Father Ted [a literary classic] reference) Galileo had (illegitimate) daughters but was unable to find husbands for them, so their remaining options were to become nuns. One seems to have quite brilliant, but the other a drunk: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_Daughter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo%27s_Daughter Back in the day the Church was the social safety net of society, so many folks ended up in monasteries as a form of charity for folks that would perhaps otherwise would have no other way to support themselves.
- jfengel 6mo agoOnly if you were reasonably wealthy. Monasteries were not orphanages. You could sometimes dump a baby off there (they had deposit bins specifically for that), but they wouldn't raise it. They would usually find somebody else to take care of it. Monasteries did not have accept older children or adults, either. Children given to the church would often come with money for their care and feeding. The poor would often get turned away. A monastery could be a safe place to house offspring who didn't have a family who could (publicly) support them. They were also good places for second sons and other spare children, and with enough money donated they could work their way up in the church hierarchy to do the family some good. But it was a lousy social safety net.
- pax 6mo agoThis autumn I have visited the Lavardens Castle which had an exhibition on D'Artagnan. Stole the English version of the explanations (QR codes, hosted incognito on their website) https://pax.github.io/playground/lavardens-dartagnan/ https://pax.github.io/playground/lavardens-dartagnan/
- Starman_Jones 6mo agoThe three musketeers - fictional d'Artagnan - real Cardinal Richelieu - real Queen Anne - real Louis XIII - real France - fictional
- ternus 6mo agoI laughed so loudly it startled the cat
- jingojango2 6mo agoSacrebleu !
- ourmandave 6mo agoTime for the next installment of the Pirates of the Caribbean. Jack Sparrow and/vs/saves the 3 Musketeers.
- lostlogin 6mo agoThat sounds like someone just decided to have a dig around inside the church.
- schmookeeg 6mo agoOne of my favorite books -- I had no idea there was a real-life inspiration for it (Balzampleu!) This will get me to re-read it, it's been too long. :)
- cholantesh 6mo agoI was aware that Aramis and of course the various royals and aristocrats were real, but not the individual soldiers. Loved this novel growing, seems like the Count of Monte Cristo is seen as more 'serious' literature, but the Three Musketeers will always have a special place in my mind.
- kergonath 6mo ago> I was aware that Aramis and of course the various royals and aristocrats were real It's more that their names were real, but their descriptions and their actions in the books are almost entirely fictional.
- srean 6mo agoCount of Monte Cristo is also semi fictional. A few month's ago I started reading Three Musketeers again. I had forgotten how relentless and fast moving it is. Moving from one action set piece to the next from beginning to end. It is almost overpowering, literally had to catch my breadth before turning a page. I had forgotten how it was when I had read it as a kid.
- chr-s 6mo agoI read both of these in the last year and they're both phenomenal. I'm working my way through the classics, there's a reason they've survived centuries. Actually, I listened to a dramatization of The Three Musketeers and I was struck by how _funny_ it is. The 4-way duel at the beginning is hilarious and Aramis' and Porthos' respective romantic escapades give great comic relief to what is otherwise an action packed adventure. The Count of Monte Cristo is an investment, and the middle third drags, but it's necessary to set up the final third, which is so rewarding for the reader. It's the best tale of revenge and redemption I've ever read.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- ramses0 6mo ago"""Hey ChatGPT, I've heard you make a good book club partner. I've just read [Three Musketeers|Count of Monte Cristo] and want to have a discussion about it. Ask me what I think before you tell me what you think, let's go!""" ...I read both of the books recently and it was illuminating to be able to near-instantly explore avenues of insight/criticism of both of the books. Three Musketeers matches fairly closely to Wizard of Oz (vice versa actually), and Monte Cristo raises some really interesting questions if you view "The Count" as basically a fallen angel of divine justice (and the benefits/costs to him via that role). Since my circle of IRL people who'd recently read both the unabridged books in the last month is infinitesimally small, it was one of my first "arms-length" test cases of "The GPT's" for fitness-for-purpose. I'm still a bit muddy on throwing a bunch of personal data and thoughts to remote servers (or becoming dependent on that interaction pattern), but digging in and analyzing old books was a great kindof gut-check and something I enjoy doing when finishing a book. I know it's regurgitating a bunch of of reddit comments and academic books/papers (in Dumas's case), but overall- highly recommended!
- ibero 6mo agothere’s no hard evidence here. the “99%” referenced in the article is someone’s personal subjective confidence it’s him. body buried under church is not particularly eventful news as it stands.
- roysting 6mo agoWhat bothers me about these kinds of things is that we are sanitizing all of the soil of indigenous culture exactly like was done in other place around the globe by the force that drove "colonialism". Now this impulse to scour and loot humanity of its indigenous cultural sites is turned on the indigenous Europeans, by the same ruling class and their institutional "researchers", "scientists" and "adventurer" apparatchiks that also scoured and looted the reset of the world and stored it in their museums, e.g., Egyptian artifacts. Is nothing sacred or "holy" anymore? Can nothing survive the self-important narcissism of "scientists" that must impose themselves on everyone against their will? Why are we allowing these types of "scientists" to just plunder and destroy the cultural artifacts and sites simply because they are curious and want to write self-important papers to advance their careers and standing? It's literally grave robbery, only more pretentious because the "scientists" are creating "collections" in their institutions. This is the very same kind of "scientist" with no respect for humanity that created the scientific classification that created racist supremacism...for science, of course. How would you feel about "scientists" digging up and grave robbing and filing away the bones of some African, Asian, or South American indigenous? Why should we accept it for European indigenous? People complain about the fact that, e.g., the British did it for centuries, e.g., all over Egypt and Indian grave and cultural sites, yet people are fine with these people doing it to the European indigenous cultural sites apparently. How about we reject this kind of purging and sanitizing of the earth of indigenous culture everywhere or at least come up with some standard of restoring things once investigated. All these artifacts survived literal millennia, but most of them will not survive the pretentious self-important narcissism of "scientist" grave robbers.
- dissent 6mo agoIs this satire?
- hulitu 6mo ago> at least come up with some standard of restoring things once investigated. Huh ? Have you seen US give Venezuela its oil back ? We are human beings. /s > All these artifacts survived literal millennia Thousand of years, yes. Only some dinosaurs bones survived literal millennia.