7 ms·
Out of interest, why does that seem a strange methodology?
by jdsnape 6mo ago
Out of interest, why does that seem a strange methodology?
- onli 6mo agoWhen reading "Books of the Century" I expected a list of the most important, most influential or just best books. Skewed towards the french perspective, given Le Monde as a source. But this was never the goal, just a "what stuck in your mind" question. For example, 1984 is missing, and Louis Begley Wartime Lies. And I wouldn't have expected Ulysses in there given the french source, for me it was incomprehensible gibberish and I thought only the US ranks it high. But that gibberishness makes it certainly memorable, so given the question it fits.
- Karuma 6mo ago1984 is N°22 on that list...
- jkingsbery 6mo ago1984 is 22 on the list.
- onli 6mo agoUpps. Searching for 1984 didn't turn it up.
- Guestmodinfo 6mo agoJames Joyce wearing his bottle bottom glasses (thick glasses) would like to have a word with you. You can call him genius, dirty, knowledgeable in many languages but certainly not gibberish. He used to hold long book club style readings of his books among the prominent literateur in his times to exactly impinge in their minds that what he writes is clever and not gibberish. In our book club we often discuss for hours what he was trying to say on a page. Sometimes he says things in 3 different dimensions by writing a single sentence.
- onli 6mo agoAre you sure you are not just reinforcing my point? :)
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6mo agoYep. > He used to hold long book club style readings of his books among the prominent literateur in his times to exactly impinge in their minds that what he writes is clever and not gibberish. My was so clever, that he had to verbally harangue people into finding his writing clever.
- jpfromlondon 6mo agoWoolf had his number, she was right on every count.
- rorytbyrne 6mo agoUlysses was first published in Paris during the 20 years that Joyce lived there. >I thought only the US ranks it high Joyce never even set foot in the United States... You could say this about The Great Gatsby, which US sources might rank in the top 5 compared to 46 in this list.
- onli 6mo agoRight, Great Gatsby is another book one could highlight, where it's surprising that it is on the (french) list, while it would be on an US list. But I haven't read it, I do not know whether it is a good example for the difference between a good or important book and a memorable one.
- keiferski 6mo ago1984 is listed at number 22 under its actual title, written out.
- mmooss 6mo agoUlysses was written in Paris, where James Joyce lived, and was published in Paris by the now legendary Shakespeare & Co. The US and UK banned it for being obscene. When I don't know, I ask and don't judge (and lacking omniscience, I don't judge anyway).
- onli 6mo agoIt's completely irrelevant where it was written, where it was published and where it was banned, I'm talking about how it is seen today. It is possible I am getting this wrong -certainly possible, since I'm taking this impression from English speaking sites like this, that I attribute to the US what should be attributed to England -, but I have seen no argument so far that even strives the point I made.
- bondarchuk 6mo agoWhat is your question? If you just want to know why Ulysses is seen as influential you can start with the wikipedia article. If you want to try again to read it you can try to read it with a guide of some kind, there are multiple, I used this one https://www.ulyssesguide.com/1-telemachus https://www.ulyssesguide.com/1-telemachus.
- onli 6mo agoNo question. It's completely against my being to consider something as good if it can't be enjoyed without a guide. I hated the tendency in computer science to hide simple definitions behind jargon. I'm okay with stuff having hidden meaning, with texts being interpretable, I'm not okay with it just being gibberish when not studying it in closest detail. I'm aware that some think this book is influential, I'm not clear on how widespread that belief is. Also, whether regular readers really like it. And no, Wikipedia does not clear that up.
- bondarchuk 6mo agoSince you have no question I won't venture to answer. :D
- shakow 6mo ago> most influential > "what stuck in your mind" That's strongly correlated IMHO; and I don't really see any objective metric for the influence of a book anyway.
- jhbadger 6mo agoIf you found Ulysses confusing, what would you think of Finnegan's Wake? Ulysses is practically a children's book in comparison. As for the lack of 1984, Orwell was an important author sure, but not particularly a good one. People read 1984 and Animal Farm for the messages, not for the exquisite prose that someone like Joyce can manage.
- onli 6mo agoSorry, I haven't tried to read that one. If it's even more, hm, abstract?, then I won't ever try. Note that 1984 is listed, just as "Nineteen Eighty-Four". I missed it when searching, didn't think of searching for "Orwell" instead. I'd disagree with you about its quality, I remember it fondly (well, as much as possible given the topic of having one's identity erased), it was a powerful experience - and I do remember it vividly, so when asked for books one remembers I'd absolutely mention it, and in a list of books of the century it does belong. Joyce "prose" on the other hand did nothing for me but make me despise his book.
- malloryerik 6mo agoIf you want a shot at liking Joyce try "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man."
- hammock 6mo agoStarting with only 200 titles in the survey, for a final list of 100, seems off to me for starters. Every book surveyed has a 50% chance of making “book of the century”
- tstenner 6mo agoThat makes it sound like 50 shades of grey would have had a 50/50 chance of getting into the top 100 if it only was included in the wider selection
- onli 6mo agoIf the question is "which book stuck in your mind" maybe it would've had a good chance to be listed as #1?
- hammock 6mo agoObviously 50/50 if random. But even if not random, I estimate 50 Shades would be 500-100,000 times more likely to be a book of the century using a list of 200 with it in it, vs an unaided open ended survey.
- wodenokoto 6mo agoIt’s a shortlist that is ranked by a committee, just like how the Oscar’s have nominees and winners. Or put another way “Every book surveyed” does a lot of heavy lifting here.