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Right... I mean, no engineer is going to tell you that customers care about unit tests, so I think you're arguing against a straw man here. What engineers will

Right... I mean, no engineer is going to tell you that customers care about unit tests, so I think you're arguing against a straw man here. What engineers will tell you is that bugs cost money, support costs money, etc, and that unit tests are one of the ways we cheaply reduce those costs in order to solve problems, which is what we're in the business of doing. We are all very aware of the fact that customers pay us... it seems totally strange to be that you think we wouldn't be aware of this fact. I suspect this is where the disconnect comes in, much to the point of the article - you seem to think that engineers just write tests and code, but the article points out how silly that is, we spend most of our time thinking about our customers, features, user experience, and how to match that to the technology choices that will allow us to build, maintain, and support systems that meet customer expectations. I think people outside of engineering might be very confused about this, strangely, but engineers do a ton of product work, support work, etc, and our job is to match that to the right technology choices.

staticassertion 6mo ago
Yeeesh. Looking at other posts from that user, they seem to have a serious grudge against software devs, presumably for not responding to their emails. "You should starve" - words taken from another post. Look, no one wanted to write code for you idk what to tell you. Now you can have AI do that for you. Congrats, best of luck. Whatever weird personal issue you have, I doubt anyone was not working for you out of some whatever this perceived snobbery is and it's just like... we all have jobs?
- carlosjobim 6mo ago
  I don't have a grudge, but there needs to be some balance. Software devs are incredibly well paid compared to other professionals. It is their responsibility to use their talents to benefit themselves, and if they are out-competed then they should work with something else. They don't have a right to a fantastic career. All other workers have had to go through this when their fields became more automated and efficient. A cargo ship used to have hundreds of crew, now it's a dozen and the amount of cargo on a ship is ten times more. So I will absolutely not cry for a software dev who has to make changes in the face of AI competition. If they're too precious to adapt or take a different job, then starve. > Look, no one wanted to write code for you idk what to tell you. Now you can have AI do that for you. Congrats, best of luck. Me and hundreds of thousands of other organizations who have software needs that were under served by the market. Now we will have AI write that code for us - or more realistically, now we will purchase this software from any of the thousands of boutique software development shops that will emerge, which use AI + talented human developers to serve us. I have the strong impression that programmers in many cases have a good deal of snobbery regarding what tasks they are willing to work on. If it's not giant enterprise software, then it's usually just filed under "hobbyist" or open source. Hopefully many programmers will find a well paying career serving less glamorous customers with software that solves real world problems. But many will have to change their attitude if they want to do that.
  - staticassertion 6mo ago
    > If they're too precious to adapt or take a different job, then starve. Yeah I mean I think everyone is with you except for the "then starve", this is just weirdly combative and lacking in empathy, I find it totally strange. > Me and hundreds of thousands of other organizations who have software needs that were under served by the market. And... you blame software developers for that? You blame software devs for a lack of capacity in the field? So weird. > Now we will have AI write that code for us - or more realistically, now we will purchase this software from any of the thousands of boutique software development shops that will emerge, which use AI + talented human developers to serve us. Okay, I mean, this has always been an option. I guess it will be more of an option now. There have been consulting agencies or "WYSIWYG" editors like Wix or other "low code/ no code" platforms for ages. No one is going to be upset that you're using them. This hostility is totally one sided lol > I have the strong impression that programmers in many cases have a good deal of snobbery regarding what tasks they are willing to work on. We like to work on interesting projects... is that surprising? Is that snobbery? I don't get it. > If it's not giant enterprise software, then it's usually just filed under "hobbyist" or open source. I find this funny because hobbyist/ open source projects are by far the ones that are glamorized by the field, not enterprise software. > Hopefully many programmers will find a well paying career serving less glamorous customers with software that solves real world problems. But many will have to change their attitude if they want to do that. I have no idea where you get this impression from. Most software devs I've worked with are motivated heavily by solving real world problems. I think you have very, very little insight into what software development actually looks like or what software engineers are motivated by. Frankly, this comes off as very much "I was snubbed and now I'm happy that the people who I perceive as having snubbed me will be replaced by AI", which I think is quite lame. You definitely seem to have a resentful tone to your posts that I find weird.
    - carlosjobim 6mo ago
      Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. Asking yourself "who is going to purchase the products?" when software development is being automated is quite silly. Why didn't they ask that question when thousands of other professions suffered the same? > And... you blame software developers for that? I don't blame them. They had more lucrative ventures to tend to. Now that under served market segments can be served with the help of AI, then they shouldn't complain. You mention making web sites, but this is probably the only field in computing where the market has a lot of offerings to customers from all segments. If I need a website I don't have to use Wix, there is an endless supply of freelancers or small, medium, or big studios that offer their services. The same cannot be said of other bespoke software needs. BTW, you are hearing a lot more hostility in my comments than is actually there. > We like to work on interesting projects... is that surprising? Is that snobbery? I don't get it. Yes it is snobbery. Other skilled professionals generally do not have that option, they have to do the boring stuff as well. And if you only like to work on interesting projects, then why are people complaining that AI is taking their jobs? Regarding hobbyist / open source, I mean that when software devs aren't working on big enterprise style projects as a job, they tend to work on enterprise style projects as open source, or just play with hobbyist projects. Servicing smaller customers with bespoke software seems to be considered a little bit beneath the programmer dignity. And it's not my personal experience talking. Consider how many studios are offering bespoke software for small businesses, compared to how many studios are offering websites for small businesses. There's a huge gap, that is probably going to be filled in some way pretty soon.
carlosjobim 6mo ago
What I'm saying is that it's a non-issue for customers if software has good engineering or not, if it fulfills their needs at a price they can pay. With AI code we might get software that is an ugly mess underneath, but at least we have it. While human programmers are unwilling to provide this software for even a high price. I could argue that people are better off having nothing to eat rather than having high quality food. But in reality something is better than nothing. There is a gigantic market and a gigantic need of software in the field between hobbyist and enterprise. And AI code will serve that field. Software engineers like you are the people who can best exploit this market segment, probably by leveraging these new AI tools. Otherwise more and more people will do like me and have AI make their own bespoke solutions.
- staticassertion 6mo ago
  > What I'm saying is that it's a non-issue for customers if software has good engineering or not, if it fulfills their needs at a price they can pay. You think that good engineering is unrelated to fulfilling needs at a price they pay? I think you're confused. Software engineers are tasked with exactly this problem - determining how to deliver utility at a price point. That's... the whole job. We consider how much it costs to run a database, how to target hardware constraints, how to build software that will scale accordingly as new features are added or new users onboard, etc. That's the job... That's sort of the whole point of the article. The job isn't "write code", which is what AI does. The job is "understand the customer, understand technology, figure out how to match customer expectations, business constraints, and technologies together in a way that can be maintained at-cost". > While human programmers are unwilling to provide this software for even a high price. Sorry, but this is just you whining that people didn't want to work for you. Software engineers obviously are willing to provide software in exchange for money, hence... idk, everyone's jobs. > And AI code will serve that field. That may be true, just as no-code solutions have done in the past. > Software engineers like you are the people who can best exploit this market segment, probably by leveraging these new AI tools. Yes, I agree. > Otherwise more and more people will do like me and have AI make their own bespoke solutions. I'm a bit skeptical of this broadly in the long term but it's certainly the case that some portion of the market will be served by this approach.

staticassertion 6mo ago

Yeeesh. Looking at other posts from that user, they seem to have a serious grudge against software devs, presumably for not responding to their emails. "You should starve" - words taken from another post. Look, no one wanted to write code for you idk what to tell you. Now you can have AI do that for you. Congrats, best of luck. Whatever weird personal issue you have, I doubt anyone was not working for you out of some whatever this perceived snobbery is and it's just like... we all have jobs?

carlosjobim 6mo ago
I don't have a grudge, but there needs to be some balance. Software devs are incredibly well paid compared to other professionals. It is their responsibility to use their talents to benefit themselves, and if they are out-competed then they should work with something else. They don't have a right to a fantastic career. All other workers have had to go through this when their fields became more automated and efficient. A cargo ship used to have hundreds of crew, now it's a dozen and the amount of cargo on a ship is ten times more. So I will absolutely not cry for a software dev who has to make changes in the face of AI competition. If they're too precious to adapt or take a different job, then starve. > Look, no one wanted to write code for you idk what to tell you. Now you can have AI do that for you. Congrats, best of luck. Me and hundreds of thousands of other organizations who have software needs that were under served by the market. Now we will have AI write that code for us - or more realistically, now we will purchase this software from any of the thousands of boutique software development shops that will emerge, which use AI + talented human developers to serve us. I have the strong impression that programmers in many cases have a good deal of snobbery regarding what tasks they are willing to work on. If it's not giant enterprise software, then it's usually just filed under "hobbyist" or open source. Hopefully many programmers will find a well paying career serving less glamorous customers with software that solves real world problems. But many will have to change their attitude if they want to do that.
- staticassertion 6mo ago
  > If they're too precious to adapt or take a different job, then starve. Yeah I mean I think everyone is with you except for the "then starve", this is just weirdly combative and lacking in empathy, I find it totally strange. > Me and hundreds of thousands of other organizations who have software needs that were under served by the market. And... you blame software developers for that? You blame software devs for a lack of capacity in the field? So weird. > Now we will have AI write that code for us - or more realistically, now we will purchase this software from any of the thousands of boutique software development shops that will emerge, which use AI + talented human developers to serve us. Okay, I mean, this has always been an option. I guess it will be more of an option now. There have been consulting agencies or "WYSIWYG" editors like Wix or other "low code/ no code" platforms for ages. No one is going to be upset that you're using them. This hostility is totally one sided lol > I have the strong impression that programmers in many cases have a good deal of snobbery regarding what tasks they are willing to work on. We like to work on interesting projects... is that surprising? Is that snobbery? I don't get it. > If it's not giant enterprise software, then it's usually just filed under "hobbyist" or open source. I find this funny because hobbyist/ open source projects are by far the ones that are glamorized by the field, not enterprise software. > Hopefully many programmers will find a well paying career serving less glamorous customers with software that solves real world problems. But many will have to change their attitude if they want to do that. I have no idea where you get this impression from. Most software devs I've worked with are motivated heavily by solving real world problems. I think you have very, very little insight into what software development actually looks like or what software engineers are motivated by. Frankly, this comes off as very much "I was snubbed and now I'm happy that the people who I perceive as having snubbed me will be replaced by AI", which I think is quite lame. You definitely seem to have a resentful tone to your posts that I find weird.
  - carlosjobim 6mo ago
    Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. Asking yourself "who is going to purchase the products?" when software development is being automated is quite silly. Why didn't they ask that question when thousands of other professions suffered the same? > And... you blame software developers for that? I don't blame them. They had more lucrative ventures to tend to. Now that under served market segments can be served with the help of AI, then they shouldn't complain. You mention making web sites, but this is probably the only field in computing where the market has a lot of offerings to customers from all segments. If I need a website I don't have to use Wix, there is an endless supply of freelancers or small, medium, or big studios that offer their services. The same cannot be said of other bespoke software needs. BTW, you are hearing a lot more hostility in my comments than is actually there. > We like to work on interesting projects... is that surprising? Is that snobbery? I don't get it. Yes it is snobbery. Other skilled professionals generally do not have that option, they have to do the boring stuff as well. And if you only like to work on interesting projects, then why are people complaining that AI is taking their jobs? Regarding hobbyist / open source, I mean that when software devs aren't working on big enterprise style projects as a job, they tend to work on enterprise style projects as open source, or just play with hobbyist projects. Servicing smaller customers with bespoke software seems to be considered a little bit beneath the programmer dignity. And it's not my personal experience talking. Consider how many studios are offering bespoke software for small businesses, compared to how many studios are offering websites for small businesses. There's a huge gap, that is probably going to be filled in some way pretty soon.

carlosjobim 6mo ago

What I'm saying is that it's a non-issue for customers if software has good engineering or not, if it fulfills their needs at a price they can pay. With AI code we might get software that is an ugly mess underneath, but at least we have it. While human programmers are unwilling to provide this software for even a high price. I could argue that people are better off having nothing to eat rather than having high quality food. But in reality something is better than nothing. There is a gigantic market and a gigantic need of software in the field between hobbyist and enterprise. And AI code will serve that field. Software engineers like you are the people who can best exploit this market segment, probably by leveraging these new AI tools. Otherwise more and more people will do like me and have AI make their own bespoke solutions.

staticassertion 6mo ago
> What I'm saying is that it's a non-issue for customers if software has good engineering or not, if it fulfills their needs at a price they can pay. You think that good engineering is unrelated to fulfilling needs at a price they pay? I think you're confused. Software engineers are tasked with exactly this problem - determining how to deliver utility at a price point. That's... the whole job. We consider how much it costs to run a database, how to target hardware constraints, how to build software that will scale accordingly as new features are added or new users onboard, etc. That's the job... That's sort of the whole point of the article. The job isn't "write code", which is what AI does. The job is "understand the customer, understand technology, figure out how to match customer expectations, business constraints, and technologies together in a way that can be maintained at-cost". > While human programmers are unwilling to provide this software for even a high price. Sorry, but this is just you whining that people didn't want to work for you. Software engineers obviously are willing to provide software in exchange for money, hence... idk, everyone's jobs. > And AI code will serve that field. That may be true, just as no-code solutions have done in the past. > Software engineers like you are the people who can best exploit this market segment, probably by leveraging these new AI tools. Yes, I agree. > Otherwise more and more people will do like me and have AI make their own bespoke solutions. I'm a bit skeptical of this broadly in the long term but it's certainly the case that some portion of the market will be served by this approach.