6 ms·

It is ridiculously more expensive and complicated under the hood, technically, but to the user, the sheer convenience of being able to text the computer "hey, w

It is ridiculously more expensive and complicated under the hood, technically, but to the user, the sheer convenience of being able to text the computer "hey, when I get an email like X, inform Y and do Z" and that's it, you're done, is unmatched.

latexr 7mo ago
What about the convenience of having your whole inbox deleted? https://www.pcmag.com/news/meta-security-researchers-openclaw-ai-agent-accidentally-deleted-her-emails https://www.pcmag.com/news/meta-security-researchers-opencla... Maybe OpenClaw was just practicing a really aggressive form of Inbox Zero.
- miroljub 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Antipode 7mo ago
    OpenClaw is rightly being blamed for a mistake it made. Any argument regarding her aptitude would be irrelevant as it would in no way absolve OpenClaw.
    - miroljub 7mo ago
      [flagged]
- skeledrew 7mo ago
  Worth the risk.
- BeetleB 7mo ago
  So ... don't give it write access to your email? As I said elsewhere, complaining about this is like complaining that rm can let you delete your hard drive. It's a tool. Learn how to use it.
  - Volundr 7mo ago
    Ignoring that you've just cut off a whole vector of usefulness, how do I keep it from exfilling my inbox to the Internet in response to a malicious email? Or using its access to take control of my online accounts? Honest question, this kind of stuff is what keeps me from using it.
    - theshrike79 7mo ago
      It's all tradeoffs and threat models. You can prevent yourself from getting spam by not having an email account. But it's the nuclear option. I'm fine with a system that can just read mail - and I already built one of those. I personally never send emails anyway so it's not an issue for me.
      - Volundr 7mo ago
        So what do you do with your OpenClaw instance that has read-only access to your email and no Internet access?
        theshrike79 7mo ago
        Did I say my Claw (not Open) doesn't have internet access? All of my tools are geared towards reducing noise and condensing information. - My weather scripts tell me just the exact metrics I care about - My email filtering system surfaces only the mails that are relevant right now - I can check the rest later. - My RSS feed hydrator pre-filters Hacker News and other RSS feeds and adds data like comment/vote count etc to the feed itself so I can determine whether the link is worth opening just based on the information presented None of these require an LLM to have free rein to modify things for me.
        Volundr 7mo ago
        > Did I say my Claw (not Open) doesn't have internet access? > My email filtering system surfaces only the mails that are relevant right now - I can check the rest later. So then you have not actually addressed the concerns expressed in my post. You indeed have an LLM with both email access and Internet access. Exactly the scenario I described. The amount of trouble those two accesses together can cause is huge. > None of these require an LLM to have free rein to modify things for me. Give me read access to your email and an Internet connection and I bet I can come up with all sorts of ways to modify things for you. So can an LLM. If your lucky it won't.
jcgl 7mo ago
Sure, that’s an interface that’s better for many users and use-cases. However, it seems better if you could, as much as is possible, move the AI stuff from runtime to “compile time.” Instead of having the AI do everything all the time, have AI configure your Zapier (or whatever) on your behalf. That way you can (ideally) get the best of both worlds: the reliability and predictability of classical software, combined with the fuzzy interface of LLMs.
- jbellis 7mo ago
  yes. in a similar vein, we're seeing that get standardized in coding agents as "don't have the agent use tools directly, have the agent write code to call the tools"
- skeledrew 7mo ago
  That's still too much work. Someone would have to make like an OpenClaw wizard that protectively offers to set all that stuff up. So the potential OpenClaw user can then, on running for the first time, be guided through the setup of whatever they'd like to get connected. And "setup" here means a short description of X and a "Connect? (y/n)" prompt. Anything more and you start losing people.
- BeetleB 7mo ago
  > Instead of having the AI do everything all the time, have AI configure your Zapier (or whatever) on your behalf. That is what many use OpenClaw for! The AI assistant will happily recommend existing services and help you (or itself, if you let it), set it up. (In theory. In practice, it often does a poor job). The appeal of OpenClaw is I don't need to go research all these possible solutions for different problems. I just tell it my problem and it figures it out. Yesterday I told it to monitor a page which lists classes offered, and have it ping me if any class with a begin date in March/April is listed. This is easily scriptable by me, but I don't want to spend time writing that script. And modifying it for each site I want to be notified for. I merely spoke (voice, not text) to the agent and it will check each day. (Again, it's not that reliable. I'm under no illusion it will inform me - but this is the appeal).
  - 7mo ago
beepbooptheory 7mo ago
Sometimes I reflect on all the metaphorical forests that have burned because a certain person at the right time only knew so much about how to use Excel, or the inbox rules of their MUA, or being totally unaware of the incredible power of macros of all sorts. Like if you could just sit someone down for 30 minutes and show a few "power user" things, you will have truly taught her to fish for a lifetime. But it can go so unaddressed, and people's careers are built on these small ignorances. I've cancelled everything at this point and just call Emacs my "special agential assistant," it makes me still sound in-the-know, and most of the time no one knows the difference! "Convenience" in this context is laziness; "productivity" and "efficiency" is for management and bosses. We don't need to be our own bosses, I want to be free from such things as an individual. I want to be capable, be maybe almost "cool." Its sad to see a whole generation turn into such product dorks! "Oh please read my email for me Mr. AI!"

latexr 7mo ago

What about the convenience of having your whole inbox deleted? https://www.pcmag.com/news/meta-security-researchers-openclaw-ai-agent-accidentally-deleted-her-emails https://www.pcmag.com/news/meta-security-researchers-opencla... Maybe OpenClaw was just practicing a really aggressive form of Inbox Zero.

miroljub 7mo ago
[flagged]
- Antipode 7mo ago
  OpenClaw is rightly being blamed for a mistake it made. Any argument regarding her aptitude would be irrelevant as it would in no way absolve OpenClaw.
  - miroljub 7mo ago
    [flagged]
skeledrew 7mo ago
Worth the risk.
BeetleB 7mo ago
So ... don't give it write access to your email? As I said elsewhere, complaining about this is like complaining that rm can let you delete your hard drive. It's a tool. Learn how to use it.
- Volundr 7mo ago
  Ignoring that you've just cut off a whole vector of usefulness, how do I keep it from exfilling my inbox to the Internet in response to a malicious email? Or using its access to take control of my online accounts? Honest question, this kind of stuff is what keeps me from using it.
  - theshrike79 7mo ago
    It's all tradeoffs and threat models. You can prevent yourself from getting spam by not having an email account. But it's the nuclear option. I'm fine with a system that can just read mail - and I already built one of those. I personally never send emails anyway so it's not an issue for me.
    - Volundr 7mo ago
      So what do you do with your OpenClaw instance that has read-only access to your email and no Internet access?
      - theshrike79 7mo ago
        Did I say my Claw (not Open) doesn't have internet access? All of my tools are geared towards reducing noise and condensing information. - My weather scripts tell me just the exact metrics I care about - My email filtering system surfaces only the mails that are relevant right now - I can check the rest later. - My RSS feed hydrator pre-filters Hacker News and other RSS feeds and adds data like comment/vote count etc to the feed itself so I can determine whether the link is worth opening just based on the information presented None of these require an LLM to have free rein to modify things for me.
        Volundr 7mo ago
        > Did I say my Claw (not Open) doesn't have internet access? > My email filtering system surfaces only the mails that are relevant right now - I can check the rest later. So then you have not actually addressed the concerns expressed in my post. You indeed have an LLM with both email access and Internet access. Exactly the scenario I described. The amount of trouble those two accesses together can cause is huge. > None of these require an LLM to have free rein to modify things for me. Give me read access to your email and an Internet connection and I bet I can come up with all sorts of ways to modify things for you. So can an LLM. If your lucky it won't.

jcgl 7mo ago

Sure, that’s an interface that’s better for many users and use-cases. However, it seems better if you could, as much as is possible, move the AI stuff from runtime to “compile time.” Instead of having the AI do everything all the time, have AI configure your Zapier (or whatever) on your behalf. That way you can (ideally) get the best of both worlds: the reliability and predictability of classical software, combined with the fuzzy interface of LLMs.

jbellis 7mo ago
yes. in a similar vein, we're seeing that get standardized in coding agents as "don't have the agent use tools directly, have the agent write code to call the tools"
skeledrew 7mo ago
That's still too much work. Someone would have to make like an OpenClaw wizard that protectively offers to set all that stuff up. So the potential OpenClaw user can then, on running for the first time, be guided through the setup of whatever they'd like to get connected. And "setup" here means a short description of X and a "Connect? (y/n)" prompt. Anything more and you start losing people.
BeetleB 7mo ago
> Instead of having the AI do everything all the time, have AI configure your Zapier (or whatever) on your behalf. That is what many use OpenClaw for! The AI assistant will happily recommend existing services and help you (or itself, if you let it), set it up. (In theory. In practice, it often does a poor job). The appeal of OpenClaw is I don't need to go research all these possible solutions for different problems. I just tell it my problem and it figures it out. Yesterday I told it to monitor a page which lists classes offered, and have it ping me if any class with a begin date in March/April is listed. This is easily scriptable by me, but I don't want to spend time writing that script. And modifying it for each site I want to be notified for. I merely spoke (voice, not text) to the agent and it will check each day. (Again, it's not that reliable. I'm under no illusion it will inform me - but this is the appeal).
- 7mo ago

beepbooptheory 7mo ago

Sometimes I reflect on all the metaphorical forests that have burned because a certain person at the right time only knew so much about how to use Excel, or the inbox rules of their MUA, or being totally unaware of the incredible power of macros of all sorts. Like if you could just sit someone down for 30 minutes and show a few "power user" things, you will have truly taught her to fish for a lifetime. But it can go so unaddressed, and people's careers are built on these small ignorances. I've cancelled everything at this point and just call Emacs my "special agential assistant," it makes me still sound in-the-know, and most of the time no one knows the difference! "Convenience" in this context is laziness; "productivity" and "efficiency" is for management and bosses. We don't need to be our own bosses, I want to be free from such things as an individual. I want to be capable, be maybe almost "cool." Its sad to see a whole generation turn into such product dorks! "Oh please read my email for me Mr. AI!"