5 ms·

> instead of feeling animated, these people feel drowsy, and they say that coffee makes them sleep Sounds like ADHD to me

dakolli 7mo ago
This is such a BS lie sold by pharmaceutical companies, "stimulants are safe for your child, amphetamines will actually calm them down". There's a thing called fast caffeine metabolizers, and 50% of people have this genetic variation and perfectly explains why some people can nap after having caffeine, also tolerance. I digress, but you will never convince me otherwise, that the wide spread promotion of amphetamines in children/young adults is anything but an experiment of Empire. I attribute the somewhat significant economic edge US society has over the rest of the world is due to its addiction to amphetamines, and the ruling classes project to push them onto working class people to make them more effective workers. Its no different than how the Nazi's used amphetamines to simulate their population or how imperialist Japan did the same. Lets stop spreading this BS lie that stimulants calm people with ADHD down.
- antonvs 7mo ago
  The well-documented scientific basis for the “calming” claim for ADHD medications is that by stimulating brain regions involved in attention, motivation, and regulation of behavior, it can reduce impulsivity and restlessness, giving the appearance of calming a person down if they have deficits in the latter areas. This has been shown to help many people (a large majority) with ADHD, and it’s also been shown to not provide general neurocognitive benefits to people without ADHD. IOW, the benefits come from improving attention and reducing impulsivity in people who have deficits in those areas. See e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6165228/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6165228/ and then e.g. the three references it cites here: > “It is important to note that a robust body of literature exists that supports the positive effects of prescription stimulants on neurocognitive functioning in children and adults with ADHD (e.g., [14,54,55]), underscoring the importance of baseline impairments in performance relative to improved effects.” Reconciling this with your opinions on the matter is left as an exercise, but there’s some pretty clear and unambiguous science here.
  - dakolli 7mo ago
    Not everything can be understood through p values and studies with 13 PARTICIPANTS undergoing a ONLY TWO EXPERIMENTS each, nor should the observed effects on 13 PEOPLE (half placebo) be extrapolated out to justifying safety for hundreds of millions of people. Next time you want to prove a point, take the time to research good sources, and not just ask an llm use your brain for once. Please go put your kid on amphetamines for 15 years and let me know how that works out for them.. Do you care how much incidents of psychosis it causes on a yearly basis? I said that the Ruling class (aka these professors) are pushing an agenda, and then you choose to provide evidence published by the ruling class to support that agenda.
    - cluckindan 7mo ago
      You did understand that the parent post was referring to the referenced articles within the linked article? 14: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087054711427299 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087054711427299 - N=50 54: https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jcpp.12917 https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jcpp.12917 - N=82 55: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763417305717 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01497... - review of 21 studies
      - dakolli 7mo ago
        Often prescribed to treat attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, the risk was highest in those taking 30 mg or more of dextroamphetamine (which corresponds to 40 mg of Adderall), The researchers identified 1,374 cases of individuals presenting with first-episode psychosis or mania, compared to 2,748 control patients with a psychiatric hospitalization for other conditions like depression or anxiety. They conducted a comparison analysis of stimulant use over the preceding month and accounted for other factors, including substance use, in order to isolate the effects of stimulants. They found the attributable risk percentage among those exposed to any prescription amphetamine was nearly 63 percent and for high dose amphetamine was 81 percent. These findings suggest that among people who take prescription amphetamine, 81 percent of cases of psychosis or mania could have been eliminated if they were not on the high dose. While a significant dose-related risk increase was seen in patients taking high doses of amphetamine, no significant risk increase was seen with methylphenidate (Ritalin) use, which is consistent with previous research, including a 2019 study led by Moran. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/09/high-doses-of-adderall-may-increase-psychosis-risk/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/09/high-doses-of... Among 1,374 case subjects and 2,748 control subjects, the odds of psychosis and mania were increased for individuals with past-month prescription amphetamine use compared with no use (adjusted odds ratio=2.68, 95% CI=1.90–3.77). A dose-response relationship was observed; high doses of amphetamines (>30 mg dextroamphetamine equivalents) were associated with 5.28-fold increased odds of psychosis or mania https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.20230329 https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.20230329 I don't care, the drug isn't safe. I've seen it permanently change many people. I don't care if they handpicked <100 individuals to prove safety. The doses cited above >40mg are pretty typical.
- Tade0 7mo ago
  > I attribute the somewhat significant economic edge US society has over the rest of the world is due to its addiction to amphetamines Over here in Europe getting prescription stimulants against ADHD is a fairly straightforward process. Or, at least, that's what I gathered from a conversation I recently had with a person taking them - they had no difficulties in this regard. As an outsider I think one of the many reasons is the sheer amount of (often unreported) hours Americans put into work annually (and pay for that in their health). For this same reason South Korea recently overtook Japan in terms of GDP per capita. By this measure the mentioned countries (descending): 1. South Korea 2. USA 3. Japan
  - dakolli 7mo ago
    I never said its the only factor, but its typical for Empires of the last 150 years to get their populations hooked on stimulants, whether this is outright intentional (probably), or a side effect of growing Empires is up for debate. Do your school counselors in elementary school work with psychiatrists to get parents to get children hooked in 5th grade because they are a more active than other kids?
  - scroogey 7mo ago
    Am in Europe and have certainly not found it straightforward. It took several years for my friend to get prescribed, as well.
- xorbax 7mo ago
  So coffee doesn't calm people, so then why do stimulants also act oppositely for those people? It's not caffeine. It isn't stimulating that part of "the nation", it's calming and focusing them. > Lets stop spreading this BS lie that stimulants calm people with ADHD down. Most people who follow the science and personal experience probably don't have any reason to follow your command, sorry.
- dubeye 7mo ago
  My experience is different. I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, but I never took medicine. I took amphetamines recreationally at uni, and the sense of calm and focus and relaxation it gives you is quite material. I think it stimulates the part of the brain that enables you to focus and relax. I did briefly see a psychiatrist and took amphetamines under his care, but ultimately decided that I didn't want the hassle of medical supervision, so preferred non-medical treatments. But the experience made clear to me that meds do have a role. I suppose I use coffee as a mild stimulant. Although it's so mild, I'd never really think of it in that way.
average_r_user 7mo ago
This may not be strictly related, but my personal experience aligns with that. If I drink coffee after lunch, I get very sleepy and have my usual bowel movements. If I drink it after dinner, I become overstimulated and can’t sleep at all (which I realize is fairly typical). For context, I’m referring to classic Italian espresso.

dakolli 7mo ago

This is such a BS lie sold by pharmaceutical companies, "stimulants are safe for your child, amphetamines will actually calm them down". There's a thing called fast caffeine metabolizers, and 50% of people have this genetic variation and perfectly explains why some people can nap after having caffeine, also tolerance. I digress, but you will never convince me otherwise, that the wide spread promotion of amphetamines in children/young adults is anything but an experiment of Empire. I attribute the somewhat significant economic edge US society has over the rest of the world is due to its addiction to amphetamines, and the ruling classes project to push them onto working class people to make them more effective workers. Its no different than how the Nazi's used amphetamines to simulate their population or how imperialist Japan did the same. Lets stop spreading this BS lie that stimulants calm people with ADHD down.

antonvs 7mo ago
The well-documented scientific basis for the “calming” claim for ADHD medications is that by stimulating brain regions involved in attention, motivation, and regulation of behavior, it can reduce impulsivity and restlessness, giving the appearance of calming a person down if they have deficits in the latter areas. This has been shown to help many people (a large majority) with ADHD, and it’s also been shown to not provide general neurocognitive benefits to people without ADHD. IOW, the benefits come from improving attention and reducing impulsivity in people who have deficits in those areas. See e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6165228/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6165228/ and then e.g. the three references it cites here: > “It is important to note that a robust body of literature exists that supports the positive effects of prescription stimulants on neurocognitive functioning in children and adults with ADHD (e.g., [14,54,55]), underscoring the importance of baseline impairments in performance relative to improved effects.” Reconciling this with your opinions on the matter is left as an exercise, but there’s some pretty clear and unambiguous science here.
- dakolli 7mo ago
  Not everything can be understood through p values and studies with 13 PARTICIPANTS undergoing a ONLY TWO EXPERIMENTS each, nor should the observed effects on 13 PEOPLE (half placebo) be extrapolated out to justifying safety for hundreds of millions of people. Next time you want to prove a point, take the time to research good sources, and not just ask an llm use your brain for once. Please go put your kid on amphetamines for 15 years and let me know how that works out for them.. Do you care how much incidents of psychosis it causes on a yearly basis? I said that the Ruling class (aka these professors) are pushing an agenda, and then you choose to provide evidence published by the ruling class to support that agenda.
  - cluckindan 7mo ago
    You did understand that the parent post was referring to the referenced articles within the linked article? 14: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087054711427299 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087054711427299 - N=50 54: https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jcpp.12917 https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jcpp.12917 - N=82 55: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763417305717 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01497... - review of 21 studies
    - dakolli 7mo ago
      Often prescribed to treat attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, the risk was highest in those taking 30 mg or more of dextroamphetamine (which corresponds to 40 mg of Adderall), The researchers identified 1,374 cases of individuals presenting with first-episode psychosis or mania, compared to 2,748 control patients with a psychiatric hospitalization for other conditions like depression or anxiety. They conducted a comparison analysis of stimulant use over the preceding month and accounted for other factors, including substance use, in order to isolate the effects of stimulants. They found the attributable risk percentage among those exposed to any prescription amphetamine was nearly 63 percent and for high dose amphetamine was 81 percent. These findings suggest that among people who take prescription amphetamine, 81 percent of cases of psychosis or mania could have been eliminated if they were not on the high dose. While a significant dose-related risk increase was seen in patients taking high doses of amphetamine, no significant risk increase was seen with methylphenidate (Ritalin) use, which is consistent with previous research, including a 2019 study led by Moran. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/09/high-doses-of-adderall-may-increase-psychosis-risk/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/09/high-doses-of... Among 1,374 case subjects and 2,748 control subjects, the odds of psychosis and mania were increased for individuals with past-month prescription amphetamine use compared with no use (adjusted odds ratio=2.68, 95% CI=1.90–3.77). A dose-response relationship was observed; high doses of amphetamines (>30 mg dextroamphetamine equivalents) were associated with 5.28-fold increased odds of psychosis or mania https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.20230329 https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.20230329 I don't care, the drug isn't safe. I've seen it permanently change many people. I don't care if they handpicked <100 individuals to prove safety. The doses cited above >40mg are pretty typical.
Tade0 7mo ago
> I attribute the somewhat significant economic edge US society has over the rest of the world is due to its addiction to amphetamines Over here in Europe getting prescription stimulants against ADHD is a fairly straightforward process. Or, at least, that's what I gathered from a conversation I recently had with a person taking them - they had no difficulties in this regard. As an outsider I think one of the many reasons is the sheer amount of (often unreported) hours Americans put into work annually (and pay for that in their health). For this same reason South Korea recently overtook Japan in terms of GDP per capita. By this measure the mentioned countries (descending): 1. South Korea 2. USA 3. Japan
- dakolli 7mo ago
  I never said its the only factor, but its typical for Empires of the last 150 years to get their populations hooked on stimulants, whether this is outright intentional (probably), or a side effect of growing Empires is up for debate. Do your school counselors in elementary school work with psychiatrists to get parents to get children hooked in 5th grade because they are a more active than other kids?
- scroogey 7mo ago
  Am in Europe and have certainly not found it straightforward. It took several years for my friend to get prescribed, as well.
xorbax 7mo ago
So coffee doesn't calm people, so then why do stimulants also act oppositely for those people? It's not caffeine. It isn't stimulating that part of "the nation", it's calming and focusing them. > Lets stop spreading this BS lie that stimulants calm people with ADHD down. Most people who follow the science and personal experience probably don't have any reason to follow your command, sorry.
dubeye 7mo ago
My experience is different. I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, but I never took medicine. I took amphetamines recreationally at uni, and the sense of calm and focus and relaxation it gives you is quite material. I think it stimulates the part of the brain that enables you to focus and relax. I did briefly see a psychiatrist and took amphetamines under his care, but ultimately decided that I didn't want the hassle of medical supervision, so preferred non-medical treatments. But the experience made clear to me that meds do have a role. I suppose I use coffee as a mild stimulant. Although it's so mild, I'd never really think of it in that way.

average_r_user 7mo ago

This may not be strictly related, but my personal experience aligns with that. If I drink coffee after lunch, I get very sleepy and have my usual bowel movements. If I drink it after dinner, I become overstimulated and can’t sleep at all (which I realize is fairly typical). For context, I’m referring to classic Italian espresso.