7 ms·

still means nothing, what is the mileage or $/mi there?

by stbtrax 7mo ago

ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
Apparently 1kg of hydrogen is about 60 miles range, which seems like a lot, but apparently fuel cells are that good. Currently hydrogen fuel if you can get it is about 15 quid a kilo in the UK, giving a tank range of around 400 miles for £80. This makes it a little more expensive than diesel, considerably more expensive than petrol, and roughly the same price as electric. By comparison Autogas LPG is around 92p/litre (or about £1.80 per kilo) and in a very large heavy 4.6 litre Range Rover you get around 250-300 miles for your £80 tankful, depending on how heavy your right foot is.
- foota 7mo ago
  > This makes it a little more expensive than diesel, considerably more expensive than petrol, and roughly the same price as electric Is electric charging more expensive in the UK than petrol? That's nuts.
  - michaelt 7mo ago
    According to [1] it breaks down like this: EV at rapid/ultra-rapid chargers: 25p/mile Petrol, diesel: 15p/mile EV charging at home: 8p/mile This is because there's a government price cap on home electricity, but not on commercial electricity - and rapid chargers are all commercial (and of course for-profit). [1] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-public-charging-costs-rac-charge-watch/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-...
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    It is if you use a rapid charger. If you're fortunate enough to be able to do what you need with a car within 50 miles or so of your house and leave it overnight to charge, it's cheaper. At present, EVs do not solve any problem I have.
    - Symbiote 7mo ago
      Very few people would use 100% rapid charging. Even on a long journey, they can arrive home with, say, 5-10% remaining, and recharge at home. (The car calculates this automatically.)
      - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        The range of most EVs is only about 120 miles, which isn't especially useful when they take around six hours to charge.
        foota 7mo ago
        Maybe most EVs in the wild, but no way for EVs being sold today. There are only 5 cars on this list below 200: https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-cons..., and more than half above 300.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        "Access Denied You don't have permission to access "http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consu..." on this server." But I mean, you say that but if you test a car advertised as having 200 miles real-world performance then in practical terms that's about 120 miles. You might get 200 miles if you're driving in a perfectly straight line on a perfectly flat motorway at a steady speed.
        foota 7mo ago
        That's... weird? Maybe it's blocked in your country? The link opens just fine for me. Those were tested numbers, not advertised though. I don't see how you'd get a drop from 200 to 120 miles, that's a 40% drop. Maybe in a gasoline powered car, but EVs can regeneratively break, so I don't think it'd make that much of a difference. Reading some more, there are a handful of different ratings. the old European one: NEDC, the new European one: WLTP, the US EPA, and China's CLTC. Generally the ratings from lowest to highest go EPA, WLTP, NEDC, then CLTC. The EPA rating is just a tad high I've read when you look at fast highway driving (e.g., 75 MPH), but should be within ballpark range. I think you're under estimating the range of modern EVs.
- stoneman24 7mo ago
  If you can get a cheap electric overnight home charging tariff in the UK, then the electric cost is lower. Mid week, I charged 43kWh for the cost of £3.04 (7p per kWh). My home charger does 7kwh in a hour. Usual mileage is about 4 miles per kWh (typical rush hour drive into Edinburgh). That should give me about 170 miles of range. Scaling it to 400 miles (400 miles at 4 miles per kWh is 100 kWh which at 7p each is about £7. Pretty much an order of magnitude better than your estimate. I admit home charging is the best arrangement and I am fortunate to have it. I did a holiday trip to the highlands and used public/hotel chargers which were closer to your numbers but also much faster (up to 150kWh per hour capacity). I think that even discounting hydrogen engineering difficulties, the infrastructure for electric is pretty much in place and the race of the technologies is over.
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    The problem is that using an EV makes living in the Highlands far more expensive even allowing for the cost of diesel, because you're forced to use rapid chargers at great expense - if they're available, and actually working - or a quick trip to the shops becomes an overnight stay.

still means nothing, what is the mileage or $/mi there?

by stbtrax 7mo ago

still means nothing, what is the mileage or $/mi there?

Apparently 1kg of hydrogen is about 60 miles range, which seems like a lot, but apparently fuel cells are that good. Currently hydrogen fuel if you can get it is about 15 quid a kilo in the UK, giving a tank range of around 400 miles for £80. This makes it a little more expensive than diesel, considerably more expensive than petrol, and roughly the same price as electric. By comparison Autogas LPG is around 92p/litre (or about £1.80 per kilo) and in a very large heavy 4.6 litre Range Rover you get around 250-300 miles for your £80 tankful, depending on how heavy your right foot is.

foota 7mo ago
> This makes it a little more expensive than diesel, considerably more expensive than petrol, and roughly the same price as electric Is electric charging more expensive in the UK than petrol? That's nuts.
- michaelt 7mo ago
  According to [1] it breaks down like this: EV at rapid/ultra-rapid chargers: 25p/mile Petrol, diesel: 15p/mile EV charging at home: 8p/mile This is because there's a government price cap on home electricity, but not on commercial electricity - and rapid chargers are all commercial (and of course for-profit). [1] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-car-public-charging-costs-rac-charge-watch/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/electric-...
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  It is if you use a rapid charger. If you're fortunate enough to be able to do what you need with a car within 50 miles or so of your house and leave it overnight to charge, it's cheaper. At present, EVs do not solve any problem I have.
  - Symbiote 7mo ago
    Very few people would use 100% rapid charging. Even on a long journey, they can arrive home with, say, 5-10% remaining, and recharge at home. (The car calculates this automatically.)
    - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
      The range of most EVs is only about 120 miles, which isn't especially useful when they take around six hours to charge.
      - foota 7mo ago
        Maybe most EVs in the wild, but no way for EVs being sold today. There are only 5 cars on this list below 200: https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-cons..., and more than half above 300.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        "Access Denied You don't have permission to access "http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consu..." on this server." But I mean, you say that but if you test a car advertised as having 200 miles real-world performance then in practical terms that's about 120 miles. You might get 200 miles if you're driving in a perfectly straight line on a perfectly flat motorway at a steady speed.
        foota 7mo ago
        That's... weird? Maybe it's blocked in your country? The link opens just fine for me. Those were tested numbers, not advertised though. I don't see how you'd get a drop from 200 to 120 miles, that's a 40% drop. Maybe in a gasoline powered car, but EVs can regeneratively break, so I don't think it'd make that much of a difference. Reading some more, there are a handful of different ratings. the old European one: NEDC, the new European one: WLTP, the US EPA, and China's CLTC. Generally the ratings from lowest to highest go EPA, WLTP, NEDC, then CLTC. The EPA rating is just a tad high I've read when you look at fast highway driving (e.g., 75 MPH), but should be within ballpark range. I think you're under estimating the range of modern EVs.
stoneman24 7mo ago
If you can get a cheap electric overnight home charging tariff in the UK, then the electric cost is lower. Mid week, I charged 43kWh for the cost of £3.04 (7p per kWh). My home charger does 7kwh in a hour. Usual mileage is about 4 miles per kWh (typical rush hour drive into Edinburgh). That should give me about 170 miles of range. Scaling it to 400 miles (400 miles at 4 miles per kWh is 100 kWh which at 7p each is about £7. Pretty much an order of magnitude better than your estimate. I admit home charging is the best arrangement and I am fortunate to have it. I did a holiday trip to the highlands and used public/hotel chargers which were closer to your numbers but also much faster (up to 150kWh per hour capacity). I think that even discounting hydrogen engineering difficulties, the infrastructure for electric is pretty much in place and the race of the technologies is over.
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  The problem is that using an EV makes living in the Highlands far more expensive even allowing for the cost of diesel, because you're forced to use rapid chargers at great expense - if they're available, and actually working - or a quick trip to the shops becomes an overnight stay.