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Agnostics are shy atheists. If the answer is either yes or no, and you say "maybe", you say "no", substantially. Why? Because every "no" is simply a refuted "

by lst 18y ago

Agnostics are shy atheists. If the answer is either yes or no, and you say "maybe", you say "no", substantially. Why? Because every "no" is simply a refuted "yes" (philosophically speaking).

markup 18y ago
How about no? I don't say "maybe", I say it is impossible to prove or disprove. Frankly reducing it to a "yes or no" question is really reductive, and pretty much a christian way to put things, if you will. Q: "Do you believe in god?" A: "I cannot know whether a god exists or not."
- lst 18y ago
  If you say: "I cannot know whether a god exists or not.", you already say that you are not cause of yourself (otherwise you would know), and, consequently, there must be another cause outside yourself: And this is exactly the definition of "God".
  - markup 18y ago
    You are probably missing the point that agnosticism is about knowledge and not beliefs (sp?)... and frankly I am tired of keep on hearing people telling me I am an atheis, shy atheis or whatever -- so I am giving up.
    - lst 18y ago
      I only explained the basic principles of logic...
      - markup 18y ago
        I tried explained you it is about epistemology, instead.
        lst 18y ago
        And you know what "logic" means? You can't act against "logic" without hurting yourself. If you are a hacker (like me), you never ever can act against logic, otherwise your program won't work (and exactly the same happens with life itself).
  - bendotc 18y ago
    "another cause outside yourself" is not exactly the definition of "God." To believe that you did not bring yourself into being does not mean you believe in God, it means you're not a solipsist. Also, would you please stop telling people what they believe? I don't think I'm the only person here who finds it to be rude. You can civilly argue a point without telling people that they're not really agnostics or whatever.
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      Also, would you please stop telling people what they believe? Also known as negation: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/profile.html#tendency_to_rape http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/profile.html#tendency_t... Profile of a rapist [...] 3) Negating behavior or comments - [...] Does he try to tell you what you are feeling or thinking? Or worse, tell you what you are not? Comments like "you don’t really mean that" are serious indicators of someone trying to negate you. A person who negates others is trying to take away the other person’s thoughts, feelings and needs and attempting to project his wants onto that person.
biohacker42 18y ago
There's nothing shy about me, trust me. Agnostics are mathematicians. Or at lest very close to being mathematicians. There's the old joke of a biologist, a physicist and a mathematician on a train in Scotland. They see a black sheep and the biologist says: Hey Scotland is full of black sheep! The Physicist responds with we have evidence of one black sheep in Scotland. And the mathematician concludes, there exists at least one sheep, at least one of whose sides is black, in Scotland. So when agnostics say you can't disprove anything, we mean it. We mean it in the literal mathematical sense of negatives not being provable. Oh but you don't live your life according to such extreme ideological purity, if somethings darn close to a duck you call it a duck. That's great if it works for you, but my mind is much stricter then that.
- Herring 18y ago
  So what happens when they don't see a black sheep?
  - biohacker42 18y ago
    As Dawkins puts it, if there were a teapot orbiting the sun, we'd have no way of detecting it. It is too small for our telescopes, so we have absolutely no evidence for a teapot orbiting the sun. You don't believe in that teapot, do you? That's silly. But Dawkins is a biologist, and I'm a computer scientist, I don't believe in the teapot, but I also don't KNOW it's not there. And that has nothing to do with shyness.
    - olavk 18y ago
      The shyness part is probably when people treat the question of belief in certain supernatural beeings as "special". Nobody is "agnostic" about their belief in the Tooth Fairy. They just plain don't believe in him (her?). Beeings from still living religions are treated differently since the issue is more sensitive.
    - TrevorJ 18y ago
      I'm a 3D animator for my day job, I definitely believe in the teapot, I saw it in the Cornell box so I know it exists. (apologies if this is way too much of an inside joke)

by lst 18y ago

Agnostics are shy atheists. If the answer is either yes or no, and you say "maybe", you say "no", substantially. Why? Because every "no" is simply a refuted "yes" (philosophically speaking).

markup 18y ago

How about no? I don't say "maybe", I say it is impossible to prove or disprove. Frankly reducing it to a "yes or no" question is really reductive, and pretty much a christian way to put things, if you will. Q: "Do you believe in god?" A: "I cannot know whether a god exists or not."

lst 18y ago
If you say: "I cannot know whether a god exists or not.", you already say that you are not cause of yourself (otherwise you would know), and, consequently, there must be another cause outside yourself: And this is exactly the definition of "God".
- markup 18y ago
  You are probably missing the point that agnosticism is about knowledge and not beliefs (sp?)... and frankly I am tired of keep on hearing people telling me I am an atheis, shy atheis or whatever -- so I am giving up.
  - lst 18y ago
    I only explained the basic principles of logic...
    - markup 18y ago
      I tried explained you it is about epistemology, instead.
      - lst 18y ago
        And you know what "logic" means? You can't act against "logic" without hurting yourself. If you are a hacker (like me), you never ever can act against logic, otherwise your program won't work (and exactly the same happens with life itself).
- bendotc 18y ago
  "another cause outside yourself" is not exactly the definition of "God." To believe that you did not bring yourself into being does not mean you believe in God, it means you're not a solipsist. Also, would you please stop telling people what they believe? I don't think I'm the only person here who finds it to be rude. You can civilly argue a point without telling people that they're not really agnostics or whatever.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    Also, would you please stop telling people what they believe? Also known as negation: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/profile.html#tendency_to_rape http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/profile.html#tendency_t... Profile of a rapist [...] 3) Negating behavior or comments - [...] Does he try to tell you what you are feeling or thinking? Or worse, tell you what you are not? Comments like "you don’t really mean that" are serious indicators of someone trying to negate you. A person who negates others is trying to take away the other person’s thoughts, feelings and needs and attempting to project his wants onto that person.

biohacker42 18y ago

There's nothing shy about me, trust me. Agnostics are mathematicians. Or at lest very close to being mathematicians. There's the old joke of a biologist, a physicist and a mathematician on a train in Scotland. They see a black sheep and the biologist says: Hey Scotland is full of black sheep! The Physicist responds with we have evidence of one black sheep in Scotland. And the mathematician concludes, there exists at least one sheep, at least one of whose sides is black, in Scotland. So when agnostics say you can't disprove anything, we mean it. We mean it in the literal mathematical sense of negatives not being provable. Oh but you don't live your life according to such extreme ideological purity, if somethings darn close to a duck you call it a duck. That's great if it works for you, but my mind is much stricter then that.

Herring 18y ago
So what happens when they don't see a black sheep?
- biohacker42 18y ago
  As Dawkins puts it, if there were a teapot orbiting the sun, we'd have no way of detecting it. It is too small for our telescopes, so we have absolutely no evidence for a teapot orbiting the sun. You don't believe in that teapot, do you? That's silly. But Dawkins is a biologist, and I'm a computer scientist, I don't believe in the teapot, but I also don't KNOW it's not there. And that has nothing to do with shyness.
  - olavk 18y ago
    The shyness part is probably when people treat the question of belief in certain supernatural beeings as "special". Nobody is "agnostic" about their belief in the Tooth Fairy. They just plain don't believe in him (her?). Beeings from still living religions are treated differently since the issue is more sensitive.
  - TrevorJ 18y ago
    I'm a 3D animator for my day job, I definitely believe in the teapot, I saw it in the Cornell box so I know it exists. (apologies if this is way too much of an inside joke)