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The harness is the model "body", it's weight the cognition. Like in nature they develop together and the iteration of natural selection works at both. If small

The harness is the model "body", it's weight the cognition. Like in nature they develop together and the iteration of natural selection works at both. If smaller labs (Zai, Moonshot, deepseek, mistral..) get together and embrace a harness, like opencode for example, as a consortium just by the power of "evolution across different environments" they might hit jackpot earlier than bigger labs.

TZubiri 7mo ago
But they rely on distilling the output of american leader models. Which will probably train against their own harness. Someone has to do the baseline training, development, and innovation. it can't be clones all the way down
- robotresearcher 7mo ago
  Why not? Humans are (very nearly) clones all the way down.
- lillecarl 7mo ago
  Citation needed, SOTA labs surely has technical protection and legaleese against using them for training. It's been done in th past but what indicates this is still the case?
  - cyanydeez 7mo ago
    this didn't stop the millions of copyrighted works used to train the models.
  - TZubiri 7mo ago
    >Citation needed, SOTA labs surely has technical protection They have unlimited APIs, as long as you pay, how would they control how you use them? > and legaleese against using them for training. It's a whole different jurisdiction, and in general chinese companies care way less about copyright infringement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_States_trade_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_States_tr...
- yowlingcat 7mo ago
  It goes the other way around as well. DeepSeek has made quite a few innovations that the US labs were lacking (DSA being the most notable one). It's also not clear to me how much of distilled outputs are just an additional ingredient of the recipe rather than a whole "frozen dinner" so to speak. I have no evidence to say it's one way or the other, but my guess is the former.
troyvit 7mo ago
Mistral recently came out with their own harness (vibe) and I feel like it was a massive missed opportunity vs throwing in with with aider or opencode.

TZubiri 7mo ago

But they rely on distilling the output of american leader models. Which will probably train against their own harness. Someone has to do the baseline training, development, and innovation. it can't be clones all the way down

robotresearcher 7mo ago
Why not? Humans are (very nearly) clones all the way down.
lillecarl 7mo ago
Citation needed, SOTA labs surely has technical protection and legaleese against using them for training. It's been done in th past but what indicates this is still the case?
- cyanydeez 7mo ago
  this didn't stop the millions of copyrighted works used to train the models.
- TZubiri 7mo ago
  >Citation needed, SOTA labs surely has technical protection They have unlimited APIs, as long as you pay, how would they control how you use them? > and legaleese against using them for training. It's a whole different jurisdiction, and in general chinese companies care way less about copyright infringement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_States_trade_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_States_tr...
yowlingcat 7mo ago
It goes the other way around as well. DeepSeek has made quite a few innovations that the US labs were lacking (DSA being the most notable one). It's also not clear to me how much of distilled outputs are just an additional ingredient of the recipe rather than a whole "frozen dinner" so to speak. I have no evidence to say it's one way or the other, but my guess is the former.

troyvit 7mo ago

Mistral recently came out with their own harness (vibe) and I feel like it was a massive missed opportunity vs throwing in with with aider or opencode.