5 ms·

They aren't comparable. Showing an ID to a staff member isn't stripping my anonymity. I know the retailer won't have that on file forever, tied to me on subsequ

They aren't comparable. Showing an ID to a staff member isn't stripping my anonymity. I know the retailer won't have that on file forever, tied to me on subsequent visits. Also they stop ID'ing you after a certain age ;) There isn't any way to achieve the same digitally.

manuelmoreale 7mo ago
I know they're not compatible. I'm asking if you're also ok with those. There are also plenty of situations where you are asked to provide an ID, digitally, when above a certain age. For example booking hotels and other accommodations. Personally I'm still trying to figure out where my position is when it comes to this whole debate because both camps have obvious pros and cons.
- ongy 7mo ago
  Which hotel asks for id online..? I've only ever had to provide it once on-site and checking in. And when then, only when I'm in foreign countries.
  - manuelmoreale 7mo ago
    Happens quite often with Airbnb for example. You often don't meet the host in person so there's no way to show them a physical ID.
    - ongy 7mo ago
      Ahh. The not-quite-a-hotel. I don't think I ever used them.
Cthulhu_ 7mo ago
Actually there is, various age verification systems exist where the party asking for it does not need to process their ID, like the Dutch iDIN (https://www.idin.nl/en/ https://www.idin.nl/en/) that works not unlike a digital payment - the bank knows your identity and age, just like they know your account balance, and can sign off on that kind of thing just like a payment. I hope this becomes more widespread / standardized; the precursor for iDIN is iDEAL which is for payments, that's being expanded and rebranded as Wero across Europe at the moment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)), in part to reduce dependency on American payment processors.
- gzread 7mo ago
  [dead]
- manuelmoreale 7mo ago
  We have a similar system in Italy so the age verification process itself doesn't personally concerns me that much since the verification process is done by the government itself and they obviously already have my information. I'm personally more interested in the intuition people have when it comes to squaring rejecting age verification online while also accepting it in a multitude of other situations (both online and offline)
  - ongy 7mo ago
    My main issue is trust. In real world scenarios, I can observe them while they handle my ID. And systematic abuse(e.g. some video that gets stored and shows it clearly) would be a violation taken serious With online providers it's barely news worthy if they abuse the data they get. I'm not against age verification (at least not strongly), but I'd want it in a 2 party 0 trust way. I.e. one party signs a jwt like thing only containing one bit, the other validates it without ever contacting the issuer about the specific token. So one knows the identity, one knows the usage But they are never related
    - manuelmoreale 7mo ago
      > So one knows the identity, one knows the usage But they are never related I could be wrong but I think this is how the system we have in place in Italy works. And I agree that it's how it should work.
- devman0 7mo ago
  The privacy issue has two facets, when I show ID to get in to a club or buy alcohol, the entire interaction is transient, the merchant isn't keeping that information and the issuer of the credential doesn't know that happened (i.e. the government). Just allowing a service provider to receive a third party attestation that you "allowed" still allows the third party to track what you are doing even if the provider can't. That's still unacceptable from a privacy standpoint, I don't want the government, or agents thereof, knowing all the places I've had to show ID.

manuelmoreale 7mo ago

I know they're not compatible. I'm asking if you're also ok with those. There are also plenty of situations where you are asked to provide an ID, digitally, when above a certain age. For example booking hotels and other accommodations. Personally I'm still trying to figure out where my position is when it comes to this whole debate because both camps have obvious pros and cons.

ongy 7mo ago
Which hotel asks for id online..? I've only ever had to provide it once on-site and checking in. And when then, only when I'm in foreign countries.
- manuelmoreale 7mo ago
  Happens quite often with Airbnb for example. You often don't meet the host in person so there's no way to show them a physical ID.
  - ongy 7mo ago
    Ahh. The not-quite-a-hotel. I don't think I ever used them.

Cthulhu_ 7mo ago

Actually there is, various age verification systems exist where the party asking for it does not need to process their ID, like the Dutch iDIN (https://www.idin.nl/en/ https://www.idin.nl/en/) that works not unlike a digital payment - the bank knows your identity and age, just like they know your account balance, and can sign off on that kind of thing just like a payment. I hope this becomes more widespread / standardized; the precursor for iDIN is iDEAL which is for payments, that's being expanded and rebranded as Wero across Europe at the moment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)), in part to reduce dependency on American payment processors.

gzread 7mo ago
[dead]
manuelmoreale 7mo ago
We have a similar system in Italy so the age verification process itself doesn't personally concerns me that much since the verification process is done by the government itself and they obviously already have my information. I'm personally more interested in the intuition people have when it comes to squaring rejecting age verification online while also accepting it in a multitude of other situations (both online and offline)
- ongy 7mo ago
  My main issue is trust. In real world scenarios, I can observe them while they handle my ID. And systematic abuse(e.g. some video that gets stored and shows it clearly) would be a violation taken serious With online providers it's barely news worthy if they abuse the data they get. I'm not against age verification (at least not strongly), but I'd want it in a 2 party 0 trust way. I.e. one party signs a jwt like thing only containing one bit, the other validates it without ever contacting the issuer about the specific token. So one knows the identity, one knows the usage But they are never related
  - manuelmoreale 7mo ago
    > So one knows the identity, one knows the usage But they are never related I could be wrong but I think this is how the system we have in place in Italy works. And I agree that it's how it should work.
devman0 7mo ago
The privacy issue has two facets, when I show ID to get in to a club or buy alcohol, the entire interaction is transient, the merchant isn't keeping that information and the issuer of the credential doesn't know that happened (i.e. the government). Just allowing a service provider to receive a third party attestation that you "allowed" still allows the third party to track what you are doing even if the provider can't. That's still unacceptable from a privacy standpoint, I don't want the government, or agents thereof, knowing all the places I've had to show ID.