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Android devices already know exactly where they are even with GPS disabled, because they sniff the nearby WIFI networks and then ask Google where they are. QED

Android devices already know exactly where they are even with GPS disabled, because they sniff the nearby WIFI networks and then ask Google where they are. QED Google knows already, all combined is mass metadata surveillance already provided to those that tap into it. Any sub-meter precision or presence detection does not really matter, if these companies have all your other questions, queries, messages, calendars, browse history, app usage, and streaming behaviour as well.

oasisbob 7mo ago
The approach described in the article is much different and more interesting, as it's passive and doesn't require any electronics on the individual being identified.
kccqzy 7mo ago
First this is not just Android. Apple does the same thing. You can buy an iPad which physically does not have any GPS hardware and it can reasonably tell you where you are. Personally I first learned of this feature when I bought a second-generation iPad, so it’s been there a while ago. Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based location querying API with privacy in mind, by purposefully making it anonymous without associating it with your account, going through relays (such as Oblivious HTTP), use various private set intersection techniques instead. It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it.
- palata 7mo ago
  > Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based location querying API with privacy in mind In which world are you living? > It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it. It has the capability of doing something bad, and it has a history of doing it. Better not forget the last part.
  - kccqzy 7mo ago
    As a former Google employee, I had witnessed first hand how powerful the internal privacy working groups were and how much they were able to push back against product teams when they not only demanded more privacy on new features but also invented many of the privacy techniques that made things possible. It’s frankly not even hard to find Google authors of RFCs that meaningfully contribute to Internet privacy. No matter what you think, no stranger on the internet can convince to ignore my own lived experience.
    - palata 7mo ago
      Have you heard of Meta opening a port in the Facebook and Instagram apps and sending them tracking data from the browser [1]? Would you say it meaningfully contributes to Internet privacy? Or Google being fined for abuse of their dominant position [2]? Do you think that when you make an LLM request, it uses full homomorphic encryption not to disclose your information? I guess I don't even have to give an example for Amazon, do I? > It’s frankly not even hard to find Google authors of RFCs that meaningfully contribute to Internet privacy. Well I didn't want to say that Google employees are malevolent, or that Google doesn't create good technology. But Big Tech (including Google) clearly regularly abuse their dominant position. Back to "Google knows everything". Would you say that Google Search is built in a way that the Google servers cannot associate an IP to its search requests? Would you say that Gmail is built in a way that the Google servers don't have access to all the emails? What about calendar, documents, drive? Google maps requests? How does Google offer information about what's happening "nearby" without knowing the location of the device? And now back to the location in particular: what about the "Find Hub" / "Find my device"? You can go on the website and ask Google where your device is, after you click a popup that says you allow Google to retrieve this information. Doesn't this obviously show that Google has access to it? They could access it without asking the permission, couldn't they? So to the question: "do we need to develop a new WiFi technology and deploy it in order to have the technical capability of mass surveillance?", the answer is "no, we have the technical capability already". And by "we", we mean "Big Tech". [1]: https://cybersecuritynews.com/track-android-users-covertly/ https://cybersecuritynews.com/track-android-users-covertly/ [2]: https://www.techspot.com/news/109360-eu-fines-google-35-billion-abusing-dominance-digital.html https://www.techspot.com/news/109360-eu-fines-google-35-bill...
NoImmatureAdHom 7mo ago
This is a defeatist attitude. Run grapheneos!
FMecha 7mo ago
>because they sniff the nearby WIFI networks and then ask Google where they are Even with airplane mode on (that disables GPS, iirc)?

oasisbob 7mo ago

The approach described in the article is much different and more interesting, as it's passive and doesn't require any electronics on the individual being identified.

kccqzy 7mo ago

First this is not just Android. Apple does the same thing. You can buy an iPad which physically does not have any GPS hardware and it can reasonably tell you where you are. Personally I first learned of this feature when I bought a second-generation iPad, so it’s been there a while ago. Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based location querying API with privacy in mind, by purposefully making it anonymous without associating it with your account, going through relays (such as Oblivious HTTP), use various private set intersection techniques instead. It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it.

palata 7mo ago
> Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based location querying API with privacy in mind In which world are you living? > It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it. It has the capability of doing something bad, and it has a history of doing it. Better not forget the last part.
- kccqzy 7mo ago
  As a former Google employee, I had witnessed first hand how powerful the internal privacy working groups were and how much they were able to push back against product teams when they not only demanded more privacy on new features but also invented many of the privacy techniques that made things possible. It’s frankly not even hard to find Google authors of RFCs that meaningfully contribute to Internet privacy. No matter what you think, no stranger on the internet can convince to ignore my own lived experience.
  - palata 7mo ago
    Have you heard of Meta opening a port in the Facebook and Instagram apps and sending them tracking data from the browser [1]? Would you say it meaningfully contributes to Internet privacy? Or Google being fined for abuse of their dominant position [2]? Do you think that when you make an LLM request, it uses full homomorphic encryption not to disclose your information? I guess I don't even have to give an example for Amazon, do I? > It’s frankly not even hard to find Google authors of RFCs that meaningfully contribute to Internet privacy. Well I didn't want to say that Google employees are malevolent, or that Google doesn't create good technology. But Big Tech (including Google) clearly regularly abuse their dominant position. Back to "Google knows everything". Would you say that Google Search is built in a way that the Google servers cannot associate an IP to its search requests? Would you say that Gmail is built in a way that the Google servers don't have access to all the emails? What about calendar, documents, drive? Google maps requests? How does Google offer information about what's happening "nearby" without knowing the location of the device? And now back to the location in particular: what about the "Find Hub" / "Find my device"? You can go on the website and ask Google where your device is, after you click a popup that says you allow Google to retrieve this information. Doesn't this obviously show that Google has access to it? They could access it without asking the permission, couldn't they? So to the question: "do we need to develop a new WiFi technology and deploy it in order to have the technical capability of mass surveillance?", the answer is "no, we have the technical capability already". And by "we", we mean "Big Tech". [1]: https://cybersecuritynews.com/track-android-users-covertly/ https://cybersecuritynews.com/track-android-users-covertly/ [2]: https://www.techspot.com/news/109360-eu-fines-google-35-billion-abusing-dominance-digital.html https://www.techspot.com/news/109360-eu-fines-google-35-bill...

NoImmatureAdHom 7mo ago

This is a defeatist attitude. Run grapheneos!

FMecha 7mo ago

>because they sniff the nearby WIFI networks and then ask Google where they are Even with airplane mode on (that disables GPS, iirc)?