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Brutalist Southbank Centre Listed
- globular-toast 7mo agoMeanwhile, Anglia Square in Norwich, which looks basically the same, is being demolished. Annoyingly, if you search for Anglia Square, most of the pictures are actually of adjacent Sovereign House. This is what I'm talking about: https://www.edp24.co.uk/resources/images/19194299.jpg/ https://www.edp24.co.uk/resources/images/19194299.jpg/
- jansper39 7mo agoThe car park there has been falling down on it's own for years and the office spaces vacant for decades. If they could knock the flyover down too it would be a boon in my opinion.
- globular-toast 7mo agoThe flyover is the real reason the area went to shit. I doubt the Anglia Square gentri^H^H^H^H^H^Hregeneration will make much difference. In London I can't think of any "nice" road flyovers. Railway bridges don't seem to have the same effect.
- eigenspace 7mo agoAbsolutely hideous, alienating, and inhuman. Not everything in cities needs to very preserved.
- risoalin 7mo agoIt is beautiful. Please don't be so bigotedly anti-concrete.
- eru 7mo agoConcrete is great, but that thing is still quite ugly.
- __alexs 7mo agoIt is actually one of the most alive and welcoming spaces in London.
- e1ghtSpace 7mo agoYour username is very similar to mine.
- TomWhitwell 7mo agoIt’s not an exaggeration to say that every day of the year, from maybe noon to midnight, these buildings are surrounded by people enjoying the city - walking along the river, going to arts events, eating out, walking between offices. It’s a hugely popular free public resource that is a massive good for Londoners. Previously (not here but at other points on the river) the water front was private - accessible only to people inside buildings - or derelict, like the areas around Tate Modern and Tower Bridge. This is one of the most human and whatever the opposite of alienating spaces in London today.
- LightBug1 7mo agoThe Southbank Centre is one of the cultural gems of London and, I'd argue, the world ... you can have your opinion on what it looks like from the outside, but what goes on inside and around it make it incredibly valuable ... so what I assume is your off-the-cuff remark is way off.
- eigenspace 7mo agoI was talking about the architecture, which is the topic of this thread. Of course it's the home to great art, but that does not make it a *building* worthy of architectural distinction or historical protection.
- LightBug1 7mo agoThat's fair, but arguable. At this stage I think the architecture and it's reason to be are now so deeply intertwined that you cannot separate them (or would ruin it with the attempt). I've seen instances where a building is all about what takes place there, demolished, re-built, and lose their soul and former purpose. I can easily see that happening with the Southbank. It's iconic and embedded so deeply at this stage, despite the the various opinions on its looks.
- nateguchi 7mo agoGreat news, surprised it's taken this long
- louthy 7mo agoIt’s a magnificent space. If you just judge it purely on the concrete you may have a different opinion, but if you’re there to consume the various forms of art performed on the Southbank, then the space really comes alive. I’m glad it’s listed. I happen to love brutalist architecture, but in the uk it can sometimes not work (grey rainy days don’t bring out the best of the concrete). However, I think in this case it really works.
- jstanley 7mo agoBut it's the concrete that has been listed and not the various forms of art performed there.
- louthy 7mo agoI mean it works as intended. It’s an art centre that succeeds in hosting art extremely well. Therefore, its functionally good architecture (if not visually appealing to everyone).
- rob74 7mo agoI'm afraid brutalist architecture has been inseparably associated with urban decay and dystopia in the public opinion. For instance, I recently played "Ghost Town" on Meta Quest, and the protagonist lives in a (extremely dilapidated, to the point that I thought "were UK council flats really this bad in the 1980s?!") tower that looks suspiciously like one of Ernő Goldfinger's tower blocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trellick_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trellick_Tower, or maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfron_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfron_Tower) - and is (of course, to add insult to injury) also haunted.
- MrSkelter 7mo agoBrutalism was invented in the UK and should be honored by its birthplace.
- jjmarr 7mo agoI don't care what people say. I love brutalist architecture. I love the exposed concrete forms. I love the giant concrete turkey in Toronto and plan to one day visit the UK to see the Barbican. Concrete is strong and imposing and emotional. It feels authoritative and cold. A warm building feels like it has deliberately undermined its own status to feel welcoming and feels fake. A brutalist building doesn't lie. It is a massive concrete edifice containing a large space within. It also weathers in distinctive ways. The water stains are like seniority, telling me the building has and will last forever. A big glass skyscraper feels replaceable and new, like it's disposable and will be replaced in a few years. I get a lot of hate for this but one of the benefits of a concrete house is the ability to throw stones.
- kolektiv 7mo agoNo I'm with you. There's an honest and an intent to it which I've always loved - plus an intent to do more with less in terms of form. No finicky detail to hide tricky areas, no taking of advantage of material to distract the eye - it stands or falls on form and function alone. I get why some may not like it, but for me it's a pure form of architecture. It's the building equivalent of a Dieter Rams, or a mid-period Olivetti. Beautiful.
- ggm 7mo agoIt's a great shame to me that the museum of London left the barbican. It made visiting the site and the building work well contextually. Roman London wall. History on tap, and a brutalist vision. The concert hall is good too.
- arethuza 7mo agoBrutalist architecture certainly has an emotional impact for me - mostly horror. On a happy note, the incredibly ugly Argyle House in Edinburgh is going to be demolished soon - how anyone thought it was a good idea to build such a thing in that location is a mystery (its evil twin in the form of New St Andrews House having been demolished years ago).
- mrec 7mo agoI was sorely tempted to downvote this for egregious wrongheadedness, but that last line is pure gold. Kudos.
- renewiltord 7mo ago[flagged]
- YawningAngel 7mo agoIf you have a cogent critique of our policy on preserving old buildings, you should articulate it. As things stand you just sound unhinged
- renewiltord 7mo ago[flagged]
- risoalin 7mo agoActually many people in the UK appreciate the beauty of concrete architecture. This listing is for us, not random foreigners.
- jimnotgym 7mo agoLove it or loath it, was listing it necessary? Was it in danger of being knocked down? Be prepared for every little bit of building work to take twice as long and cost twice as much now. The hands of future users are firmly bound.
- smallnix 7mo ago> Was it in danger of being knocked down? Abolishing the listings mechanism in favor of an ad-hoc protection mechanism (when destruction is imminent) seems worse.
- rrreese 7mo agoBefore the listing mechanism was introduced, several buildings where demolished overnight preventing any public outcry from saving them. You also seem to be implying this is new, but the current listing legislation has existed since 1990.
- daverol 7mo agomore context here https://c20society.org.uk/news/if-not-now-when-c20-renews-34-year-long-call-for-southbank-centre-listing https://c20society.org.uk/news/if-not-now-when-c20-renews-34...
- cbeach 7mo agoThe majority opinion (“it’s ugly, monolithic, oppressive, decaying” etc) is such an obvious take that people don’t bother expressing it, especially on forums like HN where people are trying to be insightful as opposed to negative. So all we get to hear are the opinions of architectural contrarians and certain left wingers who align with the political side of brutalism (i.e. a reactionary movement against Britain’s beautiful Victorian architecture, which is associated with monied elites and colonialism).
- danw1979 7mo agoThe thing about most art, architecture, etc is that it’s incredibly subjective, so contrasting your own views with “certain left wingers” is pretty much pointless. I personally think the entire south bank is pretty ugly, but my views on this, my political views or my views on other styles of architecture don’t matter one jot. If there’s a building a bunch of people care very much about, then let them protect it.
- AJRF 7mo agoIs there something wrong with me that I love Brutalist buildings? The Barbican in London is my favourite building and it feels so futuristic to me for some reason.
- mercacona 7mo agoNot just futuristic, they’re designed with intention. That’s what I miss most of all about the current buildings.
- cbeach 7mo agoFuturistic in a Bladerunner way, not a Star Trek way. The kind of future where it always rains, it’s always nighttime, and people hide themselves away in fear.
- keiferski 7mo agoI like them for two reasons: 1. They go really well with greenery. There is a book and social media account that covers this called Brutalist Plants. The contrast works exceptionally well and reminds me of nature-integrated architecture. I’d almost even say that brutalist buildings without the exterior greenery are incomplete. 2. They are buildings created with a visually coherent philosophy, even if we might disagree with it. That makes them more interesting than most contemporary buildings, which are basically just generic shells made for the smallest budget possible.
- roryirvine 7mo ago
- codeulike 7mo agohand drawn architectural cross section from the 1960s https://shop.barbican.org.uk/products/pod1049390 https://shop.barbican.org.uk/products/pod1049390 edit: misread the title, thought we were talking about the barbican again
- saaaaaam 7mo agoThat’s of the Barbican, not the Southbank Centre. Still an amazing building, but not the right amazing building!
- calpaterson 7mo agoThe Barbican is similar in many ways: a place that people either like or dislike depending on subjective personal preference but objectively has never actually worked very well. cf this programme from the BBC Archive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXpvH99tic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXpvH99tic It was clearly badly designed and problematic right from the start with little in the way of shops or services for the residents. But that's the thing about monumentalist architecture: looks singular but function is an afterthought. The south bank centre is similar.
- nickdothutton 7mo agoAlthough Brutalism is not my favourite architectural style, I still appreciate it done well. This particular building is <20 minutes from where I sit. "Decaying" as it is sometimes described, can be attributed to lack or complete absence of maintenance. This style was sold to government for their civic buildings partly because it was low maintenance, but low is not no. It would look better with more maintenance, less graffiti, the absence of litter, and more uncluttered space around it.
- roryirvine 7mo agoThe Southbank Centre isn't remotely decaying, though - in fact, it had a major refurb in the late 2010s: https://fcbstudios.com/projects/southbank-centre https://fcbstudios.com/projects/southbank-centre
- codeulike 7mo agoAlways loved the Royal Festival Hall, nice views and things to do. That whole stretch of the south bank really benefits from the ban on advertising.
- calpaterson 7mo agoA shame. It's a huge complex of fairly sparse buildings right in the centre of the capital city. Listing it just puts big obstacles in front of changing it, which I really wish we could do. People just like how it looks but actually it's not a very useful space for society and I wish it could be changed. I lived locally for 10 years and visited only a handful of times. Mostly it was just an obstacle in itself: it creates a lot of level changes (read: steps) and moving around it on foot or by bike is annoying.
- TomWhitwell 7mo ago> lived locally for 10 years and visited only a handful of times That was a mistake
- LightBug1 7mo agoTake your point but I'd err on the side of caution. Anything like that un-listed is ripe for one day getting completely ruined, and it is iconic and culturally very valuable. I can think of 1000 other spaces in London that could be changed first before going anywhere near Southbank Centre. I'm just happy the skatepark is now protected. Others may differ.
- 9dev 7mo agoGood god, that You belong here seems more like an insult than inviting to me…
- LightBug1 7mo agoPerhaps it was ... to you.
- lkm0 7mo agoI'm startled by people who say they love brutalism as an architecture. I'm able to enjoy the aesthetic, but _actually_ being for it as a viable way of housing human activity seems irresponsible. It's similar to saying "I love Beksinski paintings and wish people lived in them". What's even worse with brutalism is that the lack of form usually follows the lack of function: dark water streaks and humidity issues because gutters are for the weak, car-centric design, etc. People associate brutalism with urban decay because it's pretty much purpose built for that.
- MLR 7mo agoIt's an odd thing, brutalism is almost universally hated by the general public but there's a seemingly endless stream of people who are willing to wax lyrical about why stained concrete blocks are actually the pinnacle of architecture.
- eigenspace 7mo agoIt sometimes feels like a psy-op to read through all these gushingly positive comments, when you know how the average person feels about it. I get that it's not actually something nefarious, but it really does suck that the people who like this garbage are so loud about it that it gets shoved down the rest of the public's throats. I think the extremely public, visible, every-dat nature of architecture gives it certainly responsibilities that are different from other visual art forms. The modern trend of trying to make art that's repulsive to people with "common", "uneducated" sensibilities is one thing when it's constrained to the inside of a museum, but it's awful when it takes up this much space in public.
- cbeach 7mo ago> It sometimes feels like a psy-op to read through all these gushingly positive comments, when you know how the average person feels about it. Yes, exactly! A common theme among these weird ideological group-thinks is political undertones. > "Today, criticism on brutalism and modernism is mostly voiced by those on the far-right side of the political spectrum, precisely because of the association between modernism and the post-war welfare state" https://www.dezeen.com/2021/10/21/brutalist-buildings-right-wing-attack-welfare-state/ https://www.dezeen.com/2021/10/21/brutalist-buildings-right-... Yup - if you don't like Soviet-style dense urban monoliths, you're "far right" apparently.
- thomasfl 7mo agoSome brutalist architecture may be preserved, as a warning for future generations about the danger of mixing politics, ideology and architecture. I am the founder of the architectural uprising non-profit in Norway. The primary goal of architecture is in my view to increase peoples quality of life and to ensure social, economic and environmentally sustainability for future generations. Both the Southbank center and the Barbican center in London fails in my view. Innovation in architecture is a good thing. Now lets face the fact that most brutalists experiments over the last 80 years has failed miserably. Intensions in architecture is good. But not this buildings intentions of eradicating history and ignoring peoples feelings.
- keiferski 7mo agoHave you been to the barbican? I haven’t been in an apartment myself, but I have been in the outdoor areas multiple times. It’s very cool, and feels very well designed. It’s also consistently in demand as a place to live. So I’m not sure why you think it hasn’t increased the residents’ quality of life.
- the_other 7mo agoI've visited a flat/appartment in one of the Barbican towers. It was comfy, pleasant. The lifts and hallways were well maintained, well lit, generous dimensions (compared with many London apartment blocks I've seen). It felt like a "good" tower block, rather than a "bad" one. The arts complex is amazing (slightly confusing, but very functional and fairly pleasant to be inside). The outside spaces create a buzzy calm. I think it's an excellent complex.
- cbeach 7mo agoI used to work next door to the Barbican and occasionally visit the site on my lunch breaks. The old decaying concrete, monolithic construction, dark alleys, stagnant algae-filled lakes, dirty windows around a tropical plant space, pretentious art installations - it was all quite interesting to my morbid curiosity. But I always left the Barbican feeling lonely and bleak. I cannot imagine the misery of living in that environment and having it seep into your soul. I moved out of London, and live in the countryside now. There is something transcendent about being surrounded by natural beauty, and being far, far away from urban over-development.
- RupertSalt 7mo ago[dead]