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Thus is probably more about the EU having access to eu data than not having the US have access to EU data. Also it’s not like it’s impossible to encrypt things

by jgbuddy 8mo ago

Thus is probably more about the EU having access to eu data than not having the US have access to EU data. Also it’s not like it’s impossible to encrypt things when you store them? This article is more political than logical or technical, it’s unfortunate that government control / intervention in the free market to this degree can be spun into something positive.

reorder9695 8mo ago
I wonder if someone could make a foss frontend for Google Drive/Dropbox/<insert product here> that transparently encrypts files on your device before uploading them, that would certainly make me worry less about those services.
- l1am0 8mo ago
  https://github.com/cryptomator/cryptomator https://github.com/cryptomator/cryptomator
- fsflover 8mo ago
  How about the metadata?
- 10729287 8mo ago
  Isn’t what Cryptomator stand for ? Am I missing something here ?
embedding-shape 8mo ago
> unfortunate that government control / intervention in the free market to this degree can be spun into something positive I don't think most Europeans want a laissez faire-style "anything goes" market, we want corporations and people to have responsibility for what they do and the effect they have. With a little bit of nuance, some government control and intervention is needed in a healthy society, because we don't want to end up in the same situation the US currently finds itself in.
- jgbuddy 8mo ago
  I disagree on what’s needed for a ‘healthy society’ but maybe that’s subjective
  - jraph 8mo ago
    It is obviously subjective, it is a political opinion.
adrianN 8mo ago
„Cloud“ ist a lot more than blob storage where encryption can help. As soon as you use a service that sees plain text (eg a database saas) encryption doesn’t save you from the service provider (and by extension foreign government). But as the article points out, data exfiltration is one problem, the other, imo bigger, problem is dependence on a foreign nation for critical infrastructure. The US government can decide to shut down almost all European IT and there is nothing Europe can do about it right now.
jraph 8mo ago
> Also it’s not like it’s impossible to encrypt things when you store them? Apart from Signal, do you know of an actual US service where things are E2E encrypted, including metadata, that also allows several people working on the same thing at the same time? > not having the US have access to EU data It is a great deal about not having US access EU data. It is also about the US not having the power to cut the EU from essential services. > This article is more political than logical or technical Of course this is 100% a political matter (rather than technical). This is not a bad thing. Technical stuff doesn't live in a politic-free vacuum. > it’s unfortunate that government control / intervention in the free market to this degree can be spun into something positive. And this stance too.
- jgbuddy 8mo ago
  Most blob storage is encrypted. S3 is by default.
  - jraph 8mo ago
    This wouldn't address building an actual E2EE service. This is a hard issue. CryptPad [1] does this but it has strong limitations inherent to a fully E2EE system. (disclaimer: I work for the company which develop CryptPad, but I don't myself work on it) [1] https://cryptpad.org https://cryptpad.org
KaiserPro 8mo ago
Its past political. I work in energy now, and we host stuff in AWS. So far so normal. However, with the tubthumping about invading greenland, We see that america is willing to evaporate any system that gets in the way of the sun king's world view. Sure, he says now that "we were never going to invade" but given the way you've all just given up your 1st, 4th, 10th and now 2nd amendment, we're not really that sure. This means that when the next recession happens and the EU is busy competing, he'll ask "hey we subsidies the EU by getting them to pay for AWS, why don't we turn it off?" I mean that sounds far fetched, but so did unrelated personally controlled federal militia roving around states disappearing US citizens without trial. tldr: you're damn right its about politics. He threatened to invade an ally, we aint hanging around to find out whats next.
- KaiserPro 8mo ago
  Also to your point: "can't we just encrypt it?" Its someone else's computer. The TPM is controlled by someone else. You can't really process on a machine that has a compromised urandom/TPM Also the bigger issue is having all your access revoked over night. Thats the bigger fear.
  - XorNot 8mo ago
    Exactly - it's about availability. If someone with remote access could knock out your business operations, how long would it take to adapt? How much economic cost could that incur, perhaps at a critical time?
  - komali2 8mo ago
    > You can't really process on a machine that has a compromised urandom/TPM Naive question: does zero knowledge proof solutions help with this?
    - KaiserPro 8mo ago
      If you can process your stuff inside a zero knowledge wrapper then yeah. But most things can't be done like that sadly.
tonfa 8mo ago
> Thus is probably more about the EU having access to eu data than not having the US have access to EU data It's more about not being subjected to the whims of the US. High dependency on US vendors means high leverage for the US administration (export control, sanction, etc.).
mytailorisrich 8mo ago
IMHO, this is the EU using current events to push for more power and control for itself over member states in many areas, including new areas like defence. Apparently member states and people are fine with that or even driving it... Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.
Findecanor 8mo ago
It is also about not having the US government cutting people off from their data on a whim, such as happened to the International Criminal Court.
jeppester 8mo ago
> Thus is probably more about the EU having access to eu data than not having the US have access to EU data. The EU governments do not have free access to data in a non-transparent way. That's the main difference between EU and American laws. > Also it’s not like it’s impossible to encrypt things when you store them? The GDPR lets you store any data in a third country, so long as it's impossible for that country to decrypt the data. E.g. it has to be encrypted before it's transferred. It just severely limits what you can build, to a degree where it's probably easier to just use a cloud that can be trusted to follow the GDPR.
yobbo 8mo ago
They mean google docs/gmail or office365.

by jgbuddy 8mo ago

reorder9695 8mo ago

I wonder if someone could make a foss frontend for Google Drive/Dropbox/<insert product here> that transparently encrypts files on your device before uploading them, that would certainly make me worry less about those services.

l1am0 8mo ago
https://github.com/cryptomator/cryptomator https://github.com/cryptomator/cryptomator
fsflover 8mo ago
How about the metadata?
10729287 8mo ago
Isn’t what Cryptomator stand for ? Am I missing something here ?

embedding-shape 8mo ago

> unfortunate that government control / intervention in the free market to this degree can be spun into something positive I don't think most Europeans want a laissez faire-style "anything goes" market, we want corporations and people to have responsibility for what they do and the effect they have. With a little bit of nuance, some government control and intervention is needed in a healthy society, because we don't want to end up in the same situation the US currently finds itself in.

jgbuddy 8mo ago
I disagree on what’s needed for a ‘healthy society’ but maybe that’s subjective
- jraph 8mo ago
  It is obviously subjective, it is a political opinion.

adrianN 8mo ago

„Cloud“ ist a lot more than blob storage where encryption can help. As soon as you use a service that sees plain text (eg a database saas) encryption doesn’t save you from the service provider (and by extension foreign government). But as the article points out, data exfiltration is one problem, the other, imo bigger, problem is dependence on a foreign nation for critical infrastructure. The US government can decide to shut down almost all European IT and there is nothing Europe can do about it right now.

jraph 8mo ago

> Also it’s not like it’s impossible to encrypt things when you store them? Apart from Signal, do you know of an actual US service where things are E2E encrypted, including metadata, that also allows several people working on the same thing at the same time? > not having the US have access to EU data It is a great deal about not having US access EU data. It is also about the US not having the power to cut the EU from essential services. > This article is more political than logical or technical Of course this is 100% a political matter (rather than technical). This is not a bad thing. Technical stuff doesn't live in a politic-free vacuum. > it’s unfortunate that government control / intervention in the free market to this degree can be spun into something positive. And this stance too.

jgbuddy 8mo ago
Most blob storage is encrypted. S3 is by default.
- jraph 8mo ago
  This wouldn't address building an actual E2EE service. This is a hard issue. CryptPad [1] does this but it has strong limitations inherent to a fully E2EE system. (disclaimer: I work for the company which develop CryptPad, but I don't myself work on it) [1] https://cryptpad.org https://cryptpad.org

KaiserPro 8mo ago

Its past political. I work in energy now, and we host stuff in AWS. So far so normal. However, with the tubthumping about invading greenland, We see that america is willing to evaporate any system that gets in the way of the sun king's world view. Sure, he says now that "we were never going to invade" but given the way you've all just given up your 1st, 4th, 10th and now 2nd amendment, we're not really that sure. This means that when the next recession happens and the EU is busy competing, he'll ask "hey we subsidies the EU by getting them to pay for AWS, why don't we turn it off?" I mean that sounds far fetched, but so did unrelated personally controlled federal militia roving around states disappearing US citizens without trial. tldr: you're damn right its about politics. He threatened to invade an ally, we aint hanging around to find out whats next.

KaiserPro 8mo ago
Also to your point: "can't we just encrypt it?" Its someone else's computer. The TPM is controlled by someone else. You can't really process on a machine that has a compromised urandom/TPM Also the bigger issue is having all your access revoked over night. Thats the bigger fear.
- XorNot 8mo ago
  Exactly - it's about availability. If someone with remote access could knock out your business operations, how long would it take to adapt? How much economic cost could that incur, perhaps at a critical time?
- komali2 8mo ago
  > You can't really process on a machine that has a compromised urandom/TPM Naive question: does zero knowledge proof solutions help with this?
  - KaiserPro 8mo ago
    If you can process your stuff inside a zero knowledge wrapper then yeah. But most things can't be done like that sadly.

tonfa 8mo ago

> Thus is probably more about the EU having access to eu data than not having the US have access to EU data It's more about not being subjected to the whims of the US. High dependency on US vendors means high leverage for the US administration (export control, sanction, etc.).

mytailorisrich 8mo ago

IMHO, this is the EU using current events to push for more power and control for itself over member states in many areas, including new areas like defence. Apparently member states and people are fine with that or even driving it... Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.

Findecanor 8mo ago

It is also about not having the US government cutting people off from their data on a whim, such as happened to the International Criminal Court.

jeppester 8mo ago

> Thus is probably more about the EU having access to eu data than not having the US have access to EU data. The EU governments do not have free access to data in a non-transparent way. That's the main difference between EU and American laws. > Also it’s not like it’s impossible to encrypt things when you store them? The GDPR lets you store any data in a third country, so long as it's impossible for that country to decrypt the data. E.g. it has to be encrypted before it's transferred. It just severely limits what you can build, to a degree where it's probably easier to just use a cloud that can be trusted to follow the GDPR.

yobbo 8mo ago

They mean google docs/gmail or office365.