5 ms·

The median American is, materially, much richer than the median person pretty much anywhere else. The US is a bad place, by rich-country standards, to be in the

The median American is, materially, much richer than the median person pretty much anywhere else. The US is a bad place, by rich-country standards, to be in the bottom 10%. But in terms of consumer wealth - how large your house is, how many cars your family has and how nice they are, if you have a dishwasher and home A/C, how often you eat at restaurants or travel long distances, can you afford a home repair or the latest gadget - typical American workers are second to essentially nobody. Having grown up in and left the US, I am deeply familiar with all of its downsides, but there's an abundance of data to support this.

garbawarb 8mo ago
The problem is that many Americans are so bogged down in expenses that they don't feel wealthy despite their median wealth. For example, it's basically assumed that you must have a car and pay its high recurring expenses, including ancilliary expenses like having a home big enough to have a parking space.
- apsec112 8mo ago
  It's not like Americans are all buying X so they can't afford to buy Y - there isn't really a major category of consumption where the US median is below the OECD median. If the US had a higher savings rate, then people could smooth out consumption more (build up savings some years, draw them down in bad years or in retirement), and maybe enjoy more psychological security. But it doesn't really make sense to say that Americans are unusually "bogged down in expenses" and yet have more goods and services in every significant category.
- trimethylpurine 8mo ago
  I read through your example but couldn't find the problem. This all sounds good to me.
  - garbawarb 8mo ago
    To me it's want versus need. A lot of people feel like they're forced into things like that and don't feel wealthy despite being wealthy by any objective measure.
    - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
      I think that's an indication of a successful society. How people feel about their wealth isn't something society should be responsible for. It's a personal, philosophical, and maybe spiritual struggle.
- nickd2001 8mo ago
  Being completely car dependent is to me a fundamental problem in much of both countries, and the advantage USA has is that the cost of running a car (or often 2 especially for a family) takes a smaller part of a middle class salary. In UK , Europe, many countries outside of N America you're just not forced to own a car in the same way. That's not just extra costs when you've got a family, but a source of isolation for people that are old or disabled. (Not to discount the many other wonderful fantastic things about life in N America. :) )
amrocha 8mo ago
You’re wrong, but this essay is about Canada so I’ll focus on that. The median canadian earns more than the median USian and we do it without letting kids go hungry in schools or murder squads.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- apsec112 8mo ago
  Median American pay for full-time workers was ~$62,000 USD in Q4 2024 (BLS), which is around $85,000 CAD. The median Canadian salary is very definitely not $85,000 CAD.
  - amrocha 8mo ago
    Now adjust for PPP and subtract healthcare costs. Not to mention all the other benefits Canada provides.
    - dh2022 8mo ago
      If you are going to play this game you also need to adjust for taxes. I lived a few years in Montreal, then a few years in Toronto and after that I moved to US. During this years my perception of income taxes went from “they are pretty high” in Montreal to “Wow, they are much lower” in Toronto to “how are public services funded? Taxes are almost 0” in the states..
      - amrocha 8mo ago
        I’m not playing a game, I’m comparing facts. The median person working in the US is poorer than the median person working in Canada. Fact. Average tax rates for people with the median income are basically the same in Canada or the US.
        willhslade 8mo ago
        In 2023, the median Canadian income was roughly $44K CAD. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110005501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&pickMembers%5B1%5D=3.11&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2023&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2023&referencePeriods=20230101%2C20230101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000... Looks like the USA in 2024 was $51K USD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... I know we need to adjust for health care, but I think the median income in the USA is higher.
light_hue_1 8mo ago
Yup. That's the brainwashing for you. That having a bit more money matters when your employer can fire you for any reason. When college costs are astronomical. When you can lose your healthcare for any reason. When getting cancer might mean losing your house. When housing costs mean that anyone who rents could well be thrown out into the street. But your tv is bigger than three average tv in Germany. For sure! That's not quality of life. That's trinkets to hide the horrors. All good as long as you don't think about it and get lucky. Wealthy America is great though.

garbawarb 8mo ago

The problem is that many Americans are so bogged down in expenses that they don't feel wealthy despite their median wealth. For example, it's basically assumed that you must have a car and pay its high recurring expenses, including ancilliary expenses like having a home big enough to have a parking space.

apsec112 8mo ago
It's not like Americans are all buying X so they can't afford to buy Y - there isn't really a major category of consumption where the US median is below the OECD median. If the US had a higher savings rate, then people could smooth out consumption more (build up savings some years, draw them down in bad years or in retirement), and maybe enjoy more psychological security. But it doesn't really make sense to say that Americans are unusually "bogged down in expenses" and yet have more goods and services in every significant category.
trimethylpurine 8mo ago
I read through your example but couldn't find the problem. This all sounds good to me.
- garbawarb 8mo ago
  To me it's want versus need. A lot of people feel like they're forced into things like that and don't feel wealthy despite being wealthy by any objective measure.
  - trimethylpurine 8mo ago
    I think that's an indication of a successful society. How people feel about their wealth isn't something society should be responsible for. It's a personal, philosophical, and maybe spiritual struggle.
nickd2001 8mo ago
Being completely car dependent is to me a fundamental problem in much of both countries, and the advantage USA has is that the cost of running a car (or often 2 especially for a family) takes a smaller part of a middle class salary. In UK , Europe, many countries outside of N America you're just not forced to own a car in the same way. That's not just extra costs when you've got a family, but a source of isolation for people that are old or disabled. (Not to discount the many other wonderful fantastic things about life in N America. :) )

amrocha 8mo ago

You’re wrong, but this essay is about Canada so I’ll focus on that. The median canadian earns more than the median USian and we do it without letting kids go hungry in schools or murder squads.

deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
apsec112 8mo ago
Median American pay for full-time workers was ~$62,000 USD in Q4 2024 (BLS), which is around $85,000 CAD. The median Canadian salary is very definitely not $85,000 CAD.
- amrocha 8mo ago
  Now adjust for PPP and subtract healthcare costs. Not to mention all the other benefits Canada provides.
  - dh2022 8mo ago
    If you are going to play this game you also need to adjust for taxes. I lived a few years in Montreal, then a few years in Toronto and after that I moved to US. During this years my perception of income taxes went from “they are pretty high” in Montreal to “Wow, they are much lower” in Toronto to “how are public services funded? Taxes are almost 0” in the states..
    - amrocha 8mo ago
      I’m not playing a game, I’m comparing facts. The median person working in the US is poorer than the median person working in Canada. Fact. Average tax rates for people with the median income are basically the same in Canada or the US.
      - willhslade 8mo ago
        In 2023, the median Canadian income was roughly $44K CAD. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110005501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&pickMembers%5B1%5D=3.11&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2023&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2023&referencePeriods=20230101%2C20230101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000... Looks like the USA in 2024 was $51K USD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... I know we need to adjust for health care, but I think the median income in the USA is higher.

light_hue_1 8mo ago

Yup. That's the brainwashing for you. That having a bit more money matters when your employer can fire you for any reason. When college costs are astronomical. When you can lose your healthcare for any reason. When getting cancer might mean losing your house. When housing costs mean that anyone who rents could well be thrown out into the street. But your tv is bigger than three average tv in Germany. For sure! That's not quality of life. That's trinkets to hide the horrors. All good as long as you don't think about it and get lucky. Wealthy America is great though.