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Disclaimer: I am author of Marmot https://github.com/maxpert/marmot https://github.com/maxpert/marmot so I will sound extremely bias. I have been asked multipl

by maxpert 8mo ago

Disclaimer: I am author of Marmot https://github.com/maxpert/marmot https://github.com/maxpert/marmot so I will sound extremely bias. I have been asked multiple times on why I chose SQLite and not Turso. I've always responded people that I don't trust an open-source project once it's backed by a VC firm. I've moved away from Redis to Val-Key for same reason, and we have seen the Redis train-wreck in slow-mo. I hope at no point in future Turso ever ends up in that state, but chances are pretty high. At this point the "compatible with SQLite" has become a marketing term IMO, we all know how easy it is to break compatibility here or SQLite to break compatibility.

bawolff 8mo ago
I find it crazy that people would ask you in that direction. I would wonder why anyone would chose Turso over SQLite. SQLite is some of the most battle tested software in the world. Turso seems like relatively new software that is still a bit experimental. You do not want your databases to be new or trendy. You want your databases to be solid as a rock.
- jauntywundrkind 8mo ago
  Sqlite had such a stellar stellar reputation, for so many excellent reasons. I still find it absolutely freakish & abominable that people are so incredibly touchy & reflexively mean & vile to Turso. I've seen a couple Turso centric YouTube's recently and there are dozens and dozens of up votes for what just seems like the most petulant vacuous reflexive bitter viewed comments, dominating the comments. Sqlite deserves its honor, is amazing! Yes! But there's such a wild concentration of negativity about a sqlite compliant open source rust rewrite. None of it is technical. It's all just this extreme conservatism, this reflexive no, I don't trust it, fud fud fud fud. (Can't find the worse example but https://youtu.be/CrIkUwo8FiY https://youtu.be/CrIkUwo8FiY somewhat shows this) I'm just so embarrassed having such low antagonistic peers dominating the conversation all the time. With zero moderation, zero maybe it's ok, just dialed 100% to no no no no. For fuck sake man. Everywhere I go it's not hackers, it's not possibility seekers, it's a radical alliance of people using fear uncertainty and doubt to cling to some past, refusing even possibility of different. It's so regular, so consistent, so tiresome and so useless. What if this is better? What if you are wrong? What if there is some possibility of better? It just feels like all the air time is sucked up by these negative creeps, always, everywhere, all around, with these absurd vast pervading pessimisms that admit to no maybe possiblies, that see no tradeoffs, that are just convinced always for the worst. And it's just so popular! Is the plurality! How anti-hackerly a spirit is anti-possibility! The world deserves better than these endless drag-gards. I'm obviously reacting strongly here. But I just want some God damned room left for maybe. The negative creeps never allow that: no no no no no, fear uncertainty & doubt endless & abundant, no possibility, just bad. I cannot stand the negative energy, I'm so sad the hackers have to put up with such absolutist shitty drains sucking all the energy from the room, everywhere, always. Sqlite somehow has such a strong anti-possibility anti-energy magnet around something so so good: what a shame, it deserves better, & iteration attempts deserve at least some excitement. Progress is possible, can be neat, and judging way too early & reflexively with empty comment is to be condemned, imho.
  - bawolff 8mo ago
    > What if this is better? If it was actually better you would probably be describing how and why you think its better instead of complaining about "negativity".
    - jauntywundrkind 8mo ago
      Pretty good vector processing built-in. Time series capabilities. Nice Change-Data-Capture table that I've used & loved. Rust which is easy as hell to embed. Underlying libsqlite is very useful too. The CLI has far better ergonomics than sqlite & good formatting. Async & concurrent writes. Backwards compatibility. Just so ragingly badass. Tries. Isn't narrow & conservative. Amazing test suite. The discussion didn't seem to be about merits. It just simply seemed to be a bunch of pissy empty whining & loser statements that it wasn't even worth beginning to regard it at all, for dumb petulant reasons x y and z. Fuck that. Fine, I'm happy to sing some praises. But IMO there is a war against imagination & this loserly attitude is the omni present all pervading no value woeful forefront. This pox is everywhere, just no regard, no consideration at all, just out of hand disregard for ridiculous inconsiderate Fear Uncertainty and Doubt anti-reason, thought terminating no's. Murderers of hacker spirit. Sure, come ask for better! Yes!! Please!!! Inquire & challenge. Push for actual meat (both ways). I saw none, I tried to give you some here. These empty vessels have just vapors of fear, boogiemen to conjure & scare with. No actual content or assessment. So weird to rally so hard against open source, just because it doesn't also hail from 2.5 decades ago. We need more than reflexivism. Or we are shite non hacker people of a low culture. I complain about negativity because this is rotten & a stink. It's everywhere & so rarely is it of substance, talks to anything. I've tried to add some weight here, and most of what I've said feels basic but this gets bold: I think the weight of anti-possibility weighs heavier & has a bigger mantle to bear in its naysaying than speaking for. We should attune ourselves to consideration. The hacker spirit should favor the idea of possibility above rejection & discarding of potential.
      - bawolff 8mo ago
        > Amazing test suite. Lol, is that a joke. Seesh. [To be clear, i think sqlite is the hands down winner on this front, no contest. Does the Turso test suite qualify it to be used in safety critical applications? I don't think so]. To your other points - look if it works for you i'm not here to tell you you can't use it. However these features sound more trendy than useful. To me these sound like negatives. A bunch of extra features not related to being a relational database suggests they aren't concentrating on the core product. I dont know enough about their model for async & concurrent writes to really evaluate the cost/benefit, but both those features sound potentially really scary and of questionable value. At the end of the day its just not a compelling pitch. It seems like trading reliability and stability for a bunch of meaningless bling. Best of luck to them, but at this point yeah, sqlite sounds like a much better option to me.
- anentropic 8mo ago
  > I would wonder why anyone would chose Turso over SQLite well, Turso adds features otherwise yeah, there'd be no reason
  - namibj 8mo ago
    Ok, `io_uring` (like NVMe but for IO commands from application to kernel) and DBSP (high-grade framework for differential (as in, based on Delta streams/diffs not full updates) compression of "incremental view maintenance", it can keep materialized views synchronously up-to-date with a cost proportional to just the diff (for most typical ones; certain queries can of course be doing things at an intermediate stage that blow up and collapse again right after)). At least notably; not sure about the MVCC `BEGIN CONCURRENT`'s practical relevance though; I am just already familiar enough with the other two big ones to chime in without having to dive into what Turso does about them...
    - bawolff 8mo ago
      > Ok, `io_uring` (like NVMe but for IO commands from application to kernel) Are there benchmarks comparing turso with io_uring to sqlite (with other config the same)? io_uring has the potential to be faster but its not garunteed. It might be the same, it might be slower, depending on how you use it. People bragging about the technology instead of the result of using the technology is a bit of a red flag.
cmrdporcupine 8mo ago
So then the follow-up question to that is: How can we make sure that fundamental pieces of open source software that power the Internet can have funding, and that the people who write them can have comfortable lives working on the piece of software they love that so many people use? I think you've described a real problem. But people turn to VC because there are few other ways to make funding happen.
aranw 8mo ago
Which SQLite Go library do you use? My biggest pain with using SQLite in Go is often the libraries and the reliance of CGO which is what puts me off using Turso Edit: Looking at the go mod file I noticed github.com/mattn/go-sqlite3 which I think is a C wrapper library so I'm assuming you rely on CGO for compiling
- ncruces 8mo ago
  You have at least 2 alternatives that don't require CGO (disclosure, I made the second one): https://pkg.go.dev/modernc.org/sqlite https://pkg.go.dev/modernc.org/sqlite https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/ncruces/go-sqlite3 https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/ncruces/go-sqlite3

by maxpert 8mo ago

bawolff 8mo ago

I find it crazy that people would ask you in that direction. I would wonder why anyone would chose Turso over SQLite. SQLite is some of the most battle tested software in the world. Turso seems like relatively new software that is still a bit experimental. You do not want your databases to be new or trendy. You want your databases to be solid as a rock.

jauntywundrkind 8mo ago
Sqlite had such a stellar stellar reputation, for so many excellent reasons. I still find it absolutely freakish & abominable that people are so incredibly touchy & reflexively mean & vile to Turso. I've seen a couple Turso centric YouTube's recently and there are dozens and dozens of up votes for what just seems like the most petulant vacuous reflexive bitter viewed comments, dominating the comments. Sqlite deserves its honor, is amazing! Yes! But there's such a wild concentration of negativity about a sqlite compliant open source rust rewrite. None of it is technical. It's all just this extreme conservatism, this reflexive no, I don't trust it, fud fud fud fud. (Can't find the worse example but https://youtu.be/CrIkUwo8FiY https://youtu.be/CrIkUwo8FiY somewhat shows this) I'm just so embarrassed having such low antagonistic peers dominating the conversation all the time. With zero moderation, zero maybe it's ok, just dialed 100% to no no no no. For fuck sake man. Everywhere I go it's not hackers, it's not possibility seekers, it's a radical alliance of people using fear uncertainty and doubt to cling to some past, refusing even possibility of different. It's so regular, so consistent, so tiresome and so useless. What if this is better? What if you are wrong? What if there is some possibility of better? It just feels like all the air time is sucked up by these negative creeps, always, everywhere, all around, with these absurd vast pervading pessimisms that admit to no maybe possiblies, that see no tradeoffs, that are just convinced always for the worst. And it's just so popular! Is the plurality! How anti-hackerly a spirit is anti-possibility! The world deserves better than these endless drag-gards. I'm obviously reacting strongly here. But I just want some God damned room left for maybe. The negative creeps never allow that: no no no no no, fear uncertainty & doubt endless & abundant, no possibility, just bad. I cannot stand the negative energy, I'm so sad the hackers have to put up with such absolutist shitty drains sucking all the energy from the room, everywhere, always. Sqlite somehow has such a strong anti-possibility anti-energy magnet around something so so good: what a shame, it deserves better, & iteration attempts deserve at least some excitement. Progress is possible, can be neat, and judging way too early & reflexively with empty comment is to be condemned, imho.
- bawolff 8mo ago
  > What if this is better? If it was actually better you would probably be describing how and why you think its better instead of complaining about "negativity".
  - jauntywundrkind 8mo ago
    Pretty good vector processing built-in. Time series capabilities. Nice Change-Data-Capture table that I've used & loved. Rust which is easy as hell to embed. Underlying libsqlite is very useful too. The CLI has far better ergonomics than sqlite & good formatting. Async & concurrent writes. Backwards compatibility. Just so ragingly badass. Tries. Isn't narrow & conservative. Amazing test suite. The discussion didn't seem to be about merits. It just simply seemed to be a bunch of pissy empty whining & loser statements that it wasn't even worth beginning to regard it at all, for dumb petulant reasons x y and z. Fuck that. Fine, I'm happy to sing some praises. But IMO there is a war against imagination & this loserly attitude is the omni present all pervading no value woeful forefront. This pox is everywhere, just no regard, no consideration at all, just out of hand disregard for ridiculous inconsiderate Fear Uncertainty and Doubt anti-reason, thought terminating no's. Murderers of hacker spirit. Sure, come ask for better! Yes!! Please!!! Inquire & challenge. Push for actual meat (both ways). I saw none, I tried to give you some here. These empty vessels have just vapors of fear, boogiemen to conjure & scare with. No actual content or assessment. So weird to rally so hard against open source, just because it doesn't also hail from 2.5 decades ago. We need more than reflexivism. Or we are shite non hacker people of a low culture. I complain about negativity because this is rotten & a stink. It's everywhere & so rarely is it of substance, talks to anything. I've tried to add some weight here, and most of what I've said feels basic but this gets bold: I think the weight of anti-possibility weighs heavier & has a bigger mantle to bear in its naysaying than speaking for. We should attune ourselves to consideration. The hacker spirit should favor the idea of possibility above rejection & discarding of potential.
    - bawolff 8mo ago
      > Amazing test suite. Lol, is that a joke. Seesh. [To be clear, i think sqlite is the hands down winner on this front, no contest. Does the Turso test suite qualify it to be used in safety critical applications? I don't think so]. To your other points - look if it works for you i'm not here to tell you you can't use it. However these features sound more trendy than useful. To me these sound like negatives. A bunch of extra features not related to being a relational database suggests they aren't concentrating on the core product. I dont know enough about their model for async & concurrent writes to really evaluate the cost/benefit, but both those features sound potentially really scary and of questionable value. At the end of the day its just not a compelling pitch. It seems like trading reliability and stability for a bunch of meaningless bling. Best of luck to them, but at this point yeah, sqlite sounds like a much better option to me.
anentropic 8mo ago
> I would wonder why anyone would chose Turso over SQLite well, Turso adds features otherwise yeah, there'd be no reason
- namibj 8mo ago
  Ok, `io_uring` (like NVMe but for IO commands from application to kernel) and DBSP (high-grade framework for differential (as in, based on Delta streams/diffs not full updates) compression of "incremental view maintenance", it can keep materialized views synchronously up-to-date with a cost proportional to just the diff (for most typical ones; certain queries can of course be doing things at an intermediate stage that blow up and collapse again right after)). At least notably; not sure about the MVCC `BEGIN CONCURRENT`'s practical relevance though; I am just already familiar enough with the other two big ones to chime in without having to dive into what Turso does about them...
  - bawolff 8mo ago
    > Ok, `io_uring` (like NVMe but for IO commands from application to kernel) Are there benchmarks comparing turso with io_uring to sqlite (with other config the same)? io_uring has the potential to be faster but its not garunteed. It might be the same, it might be slower, depending on how you use it. People bragging about the technology instead of the result of using the technology is a bit of a red flag.

cmrdporcupine 8mo ago

So then the follow-up question to that is: How can we make sure that fundamental pieces of open source software that power the Internet can have funding, and that the people who write them can have comfortable lives working on the piece of software they love that so many people use? I think you've described a real problem. But people turn to VC because there are few other ways to make funding happen.

aranw 8mo ago

Which SQLite Go library do you use? My biggest pain with using SQLite in Go is often the libraries and the reliance of CGO which is what puts me off using Turso Edit: Looking at the go mod file I noticed github.com/mattn/go-sqlite3 which I think is a C wrapper library so I'm assuming you rely on CGO for compiling

ncruces 8mo ago
You have at least 2 alternatives that don't require CGO (disclosure, I made the second one): https://pkg.go.dev/modernc.org/sqlite https://pkg.go.dev/modernc.org/sqlite https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/ncruces/go-sqlite3 https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/ncruces/go-sqlite3