6 ms·

Missing from your calculus is the cost of creating, cleaning, maintaining and eventually replacing the hardware. None of that is "free" - it is merely externali

Missing from your calculus is the cost of creating, cleaning, maintaining and eventually replacing the hardware. None of that is "free" - it is merely externalized to a vulnerable population or to your future self.

microtonal 8mo ago
Missing from your calculus are the healthcare costs of every person in a country breathing in fumes from electricity plants that burn coal and fumes from cars that burn gasoline. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666759220300500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266675922... (And a gazillion other studies.)
- DetectDefect 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - nehal3m 8mo ago
    Strange that in your comment history you're all about the democratization of technology, but you seem to be against solar of all things? Talk about decentralized power!
    - DetectDefect 8mo ago
      The only thing strange is trolling comment history instead of rebutting the argument made on its own merit.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    One should definitely think about the children when choosing coal/gasoline vs. full electric. In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think.
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
    - DetectDefect 8mo ago
      > In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think. Fantastic virtue signaling. Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components though, since they're not "our" children.
      - triceratops 8mo ago
        > Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components You think elves drill oil and mine coal?
- boringg 8mo ago
  Not supporting OP because I think hes backwards on the matter. However in Canada the electricity that is being burned isn't coal based - so you need to compare the actual grid not some hypothetical grid.
  - DetectDefect 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - boringg 8mo ago
      The vagueness of your statement makes it impossible to discern any actual point outside of some broad anger/frustration packaged as humor.
    - jnovek 8mo ago
      You are being very aggressive and confrontational in your comments and people are responding in kind.
      - DetectDefect 8mo ago
        Not really. People are angry because it is likely their first time hearing a contrarian narrative about solar energy, which likely challenges their own sunk-cost fallacy as solar panel owners.
        amanaplanacanal 8mo ago
        Everything needs to be created, cleaned, maintained, and eventually replaced. You are acting like this is some sort of surprise.
        standeven 8mo ago
        I have roof top solar. I have never had to clean or maintain them in any way. Same with my friends who have roof top solar. The worst I’ve heard of is a microinverter failing, which was covered by warranty. My gut response to your post was also aggression, not because you’re preaching uncomfortable truths, but because you’re repeating fossil fuel lobbyist talking points that I’m getting really tired of seeing all over social media.
- vixen99 8mo ago
  Especially when they are offshored to China. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01308-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01308-x
- cmxch 8mo ago
  Those costs can be safely deemed as 0, especially when you use Reed Elsevier.
adrianN 8mo ago
Panels have warranties of over twenty years now. They pay for themselves much earlier. You probably have to replace the inverter earlier, but that’s not a huge expense. I don’t know anybody who lives in a place where it rains who cleans the panels on their roof.
- DetectDefect 8mo ago
  Oh, okay. Does a warranty cover sweeping snow off your panels and washing them many times throughout the years? I guess if one does not value time, then solar panels could be considered "free" - but this is a bizarre sacrifice.
  - lostlogin 8mo ago
    Where are you getting this maintenance schedule from? I haven’t touched ours, they are clean and have been going fine with zero maintenance, though admittedly it’s only been a year.
    - DetectDefect 8mo ago
      > I haven’t touched ours, they are clean and have been going fine with zero maintenance, though admittedly it’s only been a year. > Where are you getting this maintenance schedule from? The solar panel owner does not know the required maintenance they are now permanently responsible for. Ibid, your honor.
      - lostlogin 8mo ago
        They are clean, I can see that and could wipe them if I needed to. The power output is the same. Where are you getting this maintenance schedule of yours from?
        triceratops 8mo ago
        > Where are you getting this maintenance schedule of yours from? Their "Anti-Solar Talking Points" handbook from Big Oil.
munk-a 8mo ago
Roof maintenance is a need in Canada regardless of the presence of solar. Solar roofs do demand additional maintenance but the benefits over relying on natural gas for power (which is the alternative in Canada outside ON/QC) is worth it. I will stand by your statement from the philosophical point of view that nothing in life is free and everything has its trade offs - but this is a pretty clear positive. In addition, Canada has pretty decent workplace safety enforcement for the sort of workers that'd be doing the maintenance - it certainly isn't perfect but it is something that Canadians seem to find important.
account42 8mo ago
Yeah of course solar is cheap if you get everyone else to pay for it.
testing22321 8mo ago
I’ve had the system 18 months now. I’ve never once cleared snow or washed them. We get tons of snow. Zero maintenance.
direwolf20 8mo ago
Solar panels last practically forever. Despite the official lifetimes of 25-30 years, that was a conservative estimate for budgeting purposes, and they're still working after that time, with moderately reduced efficiency (around 70-80%).
micromacrofoot 8mo ago
I've had my system for 10 years and maintenance has literally been 0. Rain and snow clean the panels. Panels themselves warrantied for 30 years but will likely last longer. Roof-based panels also take on some roof wear, increasing longevity of roofing as well.

microtonal 8mo ago

Missing from your calculus are the healthcare costs of every person in a country breathing in fumes from electricity plants that burn coal and fumes from cars that burn gasoline. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666759220300500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266675922... (And a gazillion other studies.)

DetectDefect 8mo ago
[flagged]
- nehal3m 8mo ago
  Strange that in your comment history you're all about the democratization of technology, but you seem to be against solar of all things? Talk about decentralized power!
  - DetectDefect 8mo ago
    The only thing strange is trolling comment history instead of rebutting the argument made on its own merit.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  One should definitely think about the children when choosing coal/gasoline vs. full electric. In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - DetectDefect 8mo ago
    > In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think. Fantastic virtue signaling. Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components though, since they're not "our" children.
    - triceratops 8mo ago
      > Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components You think elves drill oil and mine coal?
boringg 8mo ago
Not supporting OP because I think hes backwards on the matter. However in Canada the electricity that is being burned isn't coal based - so you need to compare the actual grid not some hypothetical grid.
- DetectDefect 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - boringg 8mo ago
    The vagueness of your statement makes it impossible to discern any actual point outside of some broad anger/frustration packaged as humor.
  - jnovek 8mo ago
    You are being very aggressive and confrontational in your comments and people are responding in kind.
    - DetectDefect 8mo ago
      Not really. People are angry because it is likely their first time hearing a contrarian narrative about solar energy, which likely challenges their own sunk-cost fallacy as solar panel owners.
      - amanaplanacanal 8mo ago
        Everything needs to be created, cleaned, maintained, and eventually replaced. You are acting like this is some sort of surprise.
      - standeven 8mo ago
        I have roof top solar. I have never had to clean or maintain them in any way. Same with my friends who have roof top solar. The worst I’ve heard of is a microinverter failing, which was covered by warranty. My gut response to your post was also aggression, not because you’re preaching uncomfortable truths, but because you’re repeating fossil fuel lobbyist talking points that I’m getting really tired of seeing all over social media.
vixen99 8mo ago
Especially when they are offshored to China. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01308-x https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01308-x
cmxch 8mo ago
Those costs can be safely deemed as 0, especially when you use Reed Elsevier.

adrianN 8mo ago

Panels have warranties of over twenty years now. They pay for themselves much earlier. You probably have to replace the inverter earlier, but that’s not a huge expense. I don’t know anybody who lives in a place where it rains who cleans the panels on their roof.

DetectDefect 8mo ago
Oh, okay. Does a warranty cover sweeping snow off your panels and washing them many times throughout the years? I guess if one does not value time, then solar panels could be considered "free" - but this is a bizarre sacrifice.
- lostlogin 8mo ago
  Where are you getting this maintenance schedule from? I haven’t touched ours, they are clean and have been going fine with zero maintenance, though admittedly it’s only been a year.
  - DetectDefect 8mo ago
    > I haven’t touched ours, they are clean and have been going fine with zero maintenance, though admittedly it’s only been a year. > Where are you getting this maintenance schedule from? The solar panel owner does not know the required maintenance they are now permanently responsible for. Ibid, your honor.
    - lostlogin 8mo ago
      They are clean, I can see that and could wipe them if I needed to. The power output is the same. Where are you getting this maintenance schedule of yours from?
      - triceratops 8mo ago
        > Where are you getting this maintenance schedule of yours from? Their "Anti-Solar Talking Points" handbook from Big Oil.

munk-a 8mo ago

Roof maintenance is a need in Canada regardless of the presence of solar. Solar roofs do demand additional maintenance but the benefits over relying on natural gas for power (which is the alternative in Canada outside ON/QC) is worth it. I will stand by your statement from the philosophical point of view that nothing in life is free and everything has its trade offs - but this is a pretty clear positive. In addition, Canada has pretty decent workplace safety enforcement for the sort of workers that'd be doing the maintenance - it certainly isn't perfect but it is something that Canadians seem to find important.

account42 8mo ago

Yeah of course solar is cheap if you get everyone else to pay for it.

testing22321 8mo ago

I’ve had the system 18 months now. I’ve never once cleared snow or washed them. We get tons of snow. Zero maintenance.

direwolf20 8mo ago

Solar panels last practically forever. Despite the official lifetimes of 25-30 years, that was a conservative estimate for budgeting purposes, and they're still working after that time, with moderately reduced efficiency (around 70-80%).

micromacrofoot 8mo ago

I've had my system for 10 years and maintenance has literally been 0. Rain and snow clean the panels. Panels themselves warrantied for 30 years but will likely last longer. Roof-based panels also take on some roof wear, increasing longevity of roofing as well.