8 ms·

I think there's basically one 4x4 van on the market in the US right now. So you're making a pretty bad generalization here. In the Bay Area, it's probably true

by nospice 8mo ago

I think there's basically one 4x4 van on the market in the US right now. So you're making a pretty bad generalization here. In the Bay Area, it's probably true that a van would work well, although I lived in a mixed-income neighborhood and all the construction guys had beater pickups. But if you live in a place with snow and unpaved residential roads, 4x4 is pretty much a must (and pickups can be also be used for plowing, etc).

phil21 8mo ago
AWD is a luxury outside of the most extreme of extreme locations. I grew up in Minnesota driving rear wheel drive cars to start. They worked fine even in the olden days where plows would take a couple days to clear the country backroads and even rock salt was applied sparingly due to the expense. Not a single one of my vehicles had winter tires - all seasons were perfectly serviceable. You’d get stuck once in a great while but that’s what the bag of sand and shovel in the trunk were for. Front wheel drive came along and made it easy mode. All wheel drive is certainly something I love these days, but it’s an extreme luxury that makes winter driving laughably easy. A basic utilitarian work vehicle does not need to be 4WD in 90% or likely even 99% of use cases anywhere in the country.
- potato3732842 8mo ago
  >AWD is a luxury outside of the most extreme of extreme locations. Only in the most strictly technical "I'm not touching you" sense. Either AWD/4wd is necessary-ish when you're going to other people's property because you can't guarantee any given property isn't an icy shithole and when you're a professional being paid by them to be there for a specific purpose the last thing you wanna do is slip out trying to do a 25-point turn on their stupid sloped driveway and put a tire in the landscaping. Even if it's some megacorp's facility that "should" be plowed and salted, it might not be when you show up at 6am on the dot to service something. >I grew up in Minnesota driving rear wheel drive cars to start. They worked fine even in the olden days where plows would take a couple days to clear the country backroads and even rock salt was applied sparingly due to the expense. >Not a single one of my vehicles had winter tires - all seasons were perfectly serviceable. You’d get stuck once in a great while but that’s what the bag of sand and shovel in the trunk were for. I completely agree but the past isn't coming back. Those standards of performance are unfortunately no longer acceptable, especially in business settings.
  - phil21 8mo ago
    There are exceptions, like to everything in life. They just aren't really that interesting to discuss when talking about trends and averages. The average contractor servicing suburban and exurban properties in a work van is going to be able to trivially navigate 95% of all snowfalls with FWD with a modicum of winter driving skills. It's just not that hard, and very few places get the type of snow that requires a fully off road capable vehicle. If I lived in the mountains of Colorado and servicing ranches or something of course I'd be buying for those conditions. But a standard city in the northern US or Canada? Meh. Total waste of money for a fleet vehicle. These sorts of locations are where something like 99% of all vehicle miles are put on. For personal use now that I can afford it? AWD is on all my vehicles. It's a magical technology since it allows turning your brain off, and making some situations comically easy to navigate. But I'm not optimizing for cost efficiency or practicality there - I'm optimizing for luxury and convenience.
    - potato3732842 8mo ago
      >If I lived in the mountains of Colorado and servicing ranches or something of course I'd be buying for those conditions. But a standard city in the northern US or Canada? Meh. Total waste of money for a fleet vehicle. These sorts of locations are where something like 99% of all vehicle miles are put on. I'm not talking about places that can be written off because "the boonies are a rounding error". I'm talking about some guy who owns a plumbing business in Boston and wants to reduce the number of days per year that conditions make things sketchy. $3k per truck or $4k per van is absolutely chump change compared to the PITA of having to add more buffer to winter scheduling to account for delays and inconvenience. >for personal use now that I can afford it? AWD is on all my vehicles. It's a magical technology since it allows turning your brain off, and making some situations comically easy to navigate. But I'm not optimizing for cost efficiency or practicality there - I'm optimizing for luxury and convenience. Baffling that someone who readily admits that "you can turn your brain off" doesn't see why people who either have to drive their own work vehicle every day, or put a vehicle in the hands of an employee wouldn't value that even higher.
yencabulator 8mo ago
Ford Transit and Sprinter both have AWD. GMC apparently has a 4x4 van, the other 4x4 vans are aftermarket.
fingerlocks 8mo ago
If you mean true 4x4, there are none. Sprinter went AWD a few years ago. But I believe most vans on the market have an AWD option. Ford Transit and Volkswagen IDBuzz both offer AWD. Toyota’s Sienna is (only?) AWD with a silly lifted trim for the off-roading soccer mom market. Chrysler’s van is AWD. That leaves the ProMaster as the only two wheeler I’m certain about. Mazda and Kia also have vans, unsure about their drivetrain options. Did I leave anyone out?
kalenx 8mo ago
Since when? I sincerely do not understand that point about snow. I've lived in Canada (not southern Ontario) for most of my life and everyone had (and still mostly has) FWD. 4x4 was only for people actually going off road... I don't get how this is now a "must".
- labcomputer 8mo ago
  Since California required drivers to equip chains when driving in the mountains, unless they have AWD or 4x4. So, probably at least 70 years ago.
- ImprovedSilence 8mo ago
  it's a perceived must. when running "all season" tires year round the AWD inspires more confidence, and most people don't even know winter tires are a thing. Plus 4x4 only helps you start moving, but once you are, every car still only has 2 wheels to turn and 4 to stop, which are quite possibly more crucial in snow....
  - theshrike79 8mo ago
    There was an anecdote that went something like "a 4x4 will just get you stuck worse then a 2wd" =) And, like you said, people think that an AWD car will stop faster. No, it'll just start moving faster, more traction doesn't make the brakes better or the road any less slippery. I owned a single 4WD car and it was super fun in the winter, but... when it's icy, you're most likely moving faster than you would be with a 2wd, which again results in some heart palpitations when you're trying to stay on the road =)
    - potato3732842 8mo ago
      >And, like you said, people think that an AWD car will stop faster. The only people I know who think this way are made up people who exist only in the minds of people seeking to validate a purchasing decision.
      - 8mo ago
infecto 8mo ago
I think your generalization is the bad one. Most trade jobs get better value out of vans compared to trucks. Vans offer awd, I am not sure a 4x4 offers much value. Most companies prefer vans over trucks. Much better economics.
- potato3732842 8mo ago
  Fullsize vans don't offer AWD at a reasonable price point. Either AWD/4wd is necessary when you're going to other people's property because you can't guarantee any given property isn't an icy shithole and when you're a professional being paid by them to be there for a specific purpose the last thing you wanna do is slip out trying to do a 25-point turn on their stupid sloped driveway and put a tire in the landscaping.
  - infecto 8mo ago
    Maybe we are talking about different things. AWD is a $4k upgrade on a transit. 4wd buys you nothing and at that point it’s more about the tires. Even in cold parts of the US your hvac or plumber is going to be using something like a transit. Very few trade jobs opt for a truck. They don’t make economic sense and impossible to secure anything in the bed. Sure landscaping crews can utilize trucks but even then, your mowing operation can get more value from a transit style van if they are only using pus mowers. Maybe it’s just in my neck of the woods but if you cannot get up or down a hill because a homeowner does not clear their driveway then it’s a no go. Very acceptable boundary.
    - Amezarak 8mo ago
      > They don’t make economic sense and impossible to secure anything in the bed. I've never seen or known a trademan that drove a van. They all drive pickups. Maybe this is a regional thing.
      - infecto 8mo ago
        What region of the US are you in. I have lived in the south east, Midwest, NY, CA, TX and vans are the norm for most trade jobs outside of landscaping or jobs that can actually benefit from an open bed. HVAC, plumbing, electricians and the like all have equipment that is a lot easier to organize and safely store inside of a van. Now sometimes depending on the type of work that person does they may opt for a high roof and I have seen some opt for the chassis cab and go with a third party body that gives even more room but still enclosed and may even choose the van chassis. I am quite surprised to hear you have never seen an electrician use a van. That said there are certainly specialities where it’s more common. 90% of trade work is all on pavement and trucks suck for tools. If you are a logger yeah sure you may be using a truck to get to your equipment, similarly for lineman but for the vast majority of trade jobs companies opt for commercial vans. You are describing trade work like it’s the tv show landman.
driverdan 8mo ago
No vans are currently sold in the US with 4WD. The Sprinter and Transit are available in AWD, that's it. There are companies that will convert a van to 4WD but it's typically around $20,000 which is beyond the budget of most people.
- yencabulator 8mo ago
  2026 GMC Savana 3500 is first-party 4x4.
  - vetrom 8mo ago
    The only trims I see online at gmc dot com are RWD. Would you elucidate on this 4x4 option please?
    - yencabulator 8mo ago
      There was some noise about an "Outland Edition" coming out in 2026 but all I can find now is AI slop, so maybe that's not real or maybe that's not done yet. It could also be just a further deal with Quigley. You can already order from a dealer with the 4x4 option, and your vehicle will go factory->Quigley->dealer and be sold to you as "new", with good warranties.
      - driverdan 8mo ago
        Quigley is the main 4x4 conversion company I was referring to in my reply. It's about $20k.

by nospice 8mo ago

phil21 8mo ago

AWD is a luxury outside of the most extreme of extreme locations. I grew up in Minnesota driving rear wheel drive cars to start. They worked fine even in the olden days where plows would take a couple days to clear the country backroads and even rock salt was applied sparingly due to the expense. Not a single one of my vehicles had winter tires - all seasons were perfectly serviceable. You’d get stuck once in a great while but that’s what the bag of sand and shovel in the trunk were for. Front wheel drive came along and made it easy mode. All wheel drive is certainly something I love these days, but it’s an extreme luxury that makes winter driving laughably easy. A basic utilitarian work vehicle does not need to be 4WD in 90% or likely even 99% of use cases anywhere in the country.

potato3732842 8mo ago
>AWD is a luxury outside of the most extreme of extreme locations. Only in the most strictly technical "I'm not touching you" sense. Either AWD/4wd is necessary-ish when you're going to other people's property because you can't guarantee any given property isn't an icy shithole and when you're a professional being paid by them to be there for a specific purpose the last thing you wanna do is slip out trying to do a 25-point turn on their stupid sloped driveway and put a tire in the landscaping. Even if it's some megacorp's facility that "should" be plowed and salted, it might not be when you show up at 6am on the dot to service something. >I grew up in Minnesota driving rear wheel drive cars to start. They worked fine even in the olden days where plows would take a couple days to clear the country backroads and even rock salt was applied sparingly due to the expense. >Not a single one of my vehicles had winter tires - all seasons were perfectly serviceable. You’d get stuck once in a great while but that’s what the bag of sand and shovel in the trunk were for. I completely agree but the past isn't coming back. Those standards of performance are unfortunately no longer acceptable, especially in business settings.
- phil21 8mo ago
  There are exceptions, like to everything in life. They just aren't really that interesting to discuss when talking about trends and averages. The average contractor servicing suburban and exurban properties in a work van is going to be able to trivially navigate 95% of all snowfalls with FWD with a modicum of winter driving skills. It's just not that hard, and very few places get the type of snow that requires a fully off road capable vehicle. If I lived in the mountains of Colorado and servicing ranches or something of course I'd be buying for those conditions. But a standard city in the northern US or Canada? Meh. Total waste of money for a fleet vehicle. These sorts of locations are where something like 99% of all vehicle miles are put on. For personal use now that I can afford it? AWD is on all my vehicles. It's a magical technology since it allows turning your brain off, and making some situations comically easy to navigate. But I'm not optimizing for cost efficiency or practicality there - I'm optimizing for luxury and convenience.
  - potato3732842 8mo ago
    >If I lived in the mountains of Colorado and servicing ranches or something of course I'd be buying for those conditions. But a standard city in the northern US or Canada? Meh. Total waste of money for a fleet vehicle. These sorts of locations are where something like 99% of all vehicle miles are put on. I'm not talking about places that can be written off because "the boonies are a rounding error". I'm talking about some guy who owns a plumbing business in Boston and wants to reduce the number of days per year that conditions make things sketchy. $3k per truck or $4k per van is absolutely chump change compared to the PITA of having to add more buffer to winter scheduling to account for delays and inconvenience. >for personal use now that I can afford it? AWD is on all my vehicles. It's a magical technology since it allows turning your brain off, and making some situations comically easy to navigate. But I'm not optimizing for cost efficiency or practicality there - I'm optimizing for luxury and convenience. Baffling that someone who readily admits that "you can turn your brain off" doesn't see why people who either have to drive their own work vehicle every day, or put a vehicle in the hands of an employee wouldn't value that even higher.

yencabulator 8mo ago

Ford Transit and Sprinter both have AWD. GMC apparently has a 4x4 van, the other 4x4 vans are aftermarket.

fingerlocks 8mo ago

If you mean true 4x4, there are none. Sprinter went AWD a few years ago. But I believe most vans on the market have an AWD option. Ford Transit and Volkswagen IDBuzz both offer AWD. Toyota’s Sienna is (only?) AWD with a silly lifted trim for the off-roading soccer mom market. Chrysler’s van is AWD. That leaves the ProMaster as the only two wheeler I’m certain about. Mazda and Kia also have vans, unsure about their drivetrain options. Did I leave anyone out?

kalenx 8mo ago

Since when? I sincerely do not understand that point about snow. I've lived in Canada (not southern Ontario) for most of my life and everyone had (and still mostly has) FWD. 4x4 was only for people actually going off road... I don't get how this is now a "must".

labcomputer 8mo ago
Since California required drivers to equip chains when driving in the mountains, unless they have AWD or 4x4. So, probably at least 70 years ago.
ImprovedSilence 8mo ago
it's a perceived must. when running "all season" tires year round the AWD inspires more confidence, and most people don't even know winter tires are a thing. Plus 4x4 only helps you start moving, but once you are, every car still only has 2 wheels to turn and 4 to stop, which are quite possibly more crucial in snow....
- theshrike79 8mo ago
  There was an anecdote that went something like "a 4x4 will just get you stuck worse then a 2wd" =) And, like you said, people think that an AWD car will stop faster. No, it'll just start moving faster, more traction doesn't make the brakes better or the road any less slippery. I owned a single 4WD car and it was super fun in the winter, but... when it's icy, you're most likely moving faster than you would be with a 2wd, which again results in some heart palpitations when you're trying to stay on the road =)
  - potato3732842 8mo ago
    >And, like you said, people think that an AWD car will stop faster. The only people I know who think this way are made up people who exist only in the minds of people seeking to validate a purchasing decision.
    - 8mo ago

infecto 8mo ago

I think your generalization is the bad one. Most trade jobs get better value out of vans compared to trucks. Vans offer awd, I am not sure a 4x4 offers much value. Most companies prefer vans over trucks. Much better economics.

potato3732842 8mo ago
Fullsize vans don't offer AWD at a reasonable price point. Either AWD/4wd is necessary when you're going to other people's property because you can't guarantee any given property isn't an icy shithole and when you're a professional being paid by them to be there for a specific purpose the last thing you wanna do is slip out trying to do a 25-point turn on their stupid sloped driveway and put a tire in the landscaping.
- infecto 8mo ago
  Maybe we are talking about different things. AWD is a $4k upgrade on a transit. 4wd buys you nothing and at that point it’s more about the tires. Even in cold parts of the US your hvac or plumber is going to be using something like a transit. Very few trade jobs opt for a truck. They don’t make economic sense and impossible to secure anything in the bed. Sure landscaping crews can utilize trucks but even then, your mowing operation can get more value from a transit style van if they are only using pus mowers. Maybe it’s just in my neck of the woods but if you cannot get up or down a hill because a homeowner does not clear their driveway then it’s a no go. Very acceptable boundary.
  - Amezarak 8mo ago
    > They don’t make economic sense and impossible to secure anything in the bed. I've never seen or known a trademan that drove a van. They all drive pickups. Maybe this is a regional thing.
    - infecto 8mo ago
      What region of the US are you in. I have lived in the south east, Midwest, NY, CA, TX and vans are the norm for most trade jobs outside of landscaping or jobs that can actually benefit from an open bed. HVAC, plumbing, electricians and the like all have equipment that is a lot easier to organize and safely store inside of a van. Now sometimes depending on the type of work that person does they may opt for a high roof and I have seen some opt for the chassis cab and go with a third party body that gives even more room but still enclosed and may even choose the van chassis. I am quite surprised to hear you have never seen an electrician use a van. That said there are certainly specialities where it’s more common. 90% of trade work is all on pavement and trucks suck for tools. If you are a logger yeah sure you may be using a truck to get to your equipment, similarly for lineman but for the vast majority of trade jobs companies opt for commercial vans. You are describing trade work like it’s the tv show landman.

driverdan 8mo ago

No vans are currently sold in the US with 4WD. The Sprinter and Transit are available in AWD, that's it. There are companies that will convert a van to 4WD but it's typically around $20,000 which is beyond the budget of most people.

yencabulator 8mo ago
2026 GMC Savana 3500 is first-party 4x4.
- vetrom 8mo ago
  The only trims I see online at gmc dot com are RWD. Would you elucidate on this 4x4 option please?
  - yencabulator 8mo ago
    There was some noise about an "Outland Edition" coming out in 2026 but all I can find now is AI slop, so maybe that's not real or maybe that's not done yet. It could also be just a further deal with Quigley. You can already order from a dealer with the 4x4 option, and your vehicle will go factory->Quigley->dealer and be sold to you as "new", with good warranties.
    - driverdan 8mo ago
      Quigley is the main 4x4 conversion company I was referring to in my reply. It's about $20k.