8 ms·

Ladybird is going to use Swift.

by binary132 8mo ago

torginus 8mo ago
If I remember correctly, the guy behind it used to work at Apple, maybe that has to do something with it?
- binary132 8mo ago
  perhaps they do not think Rust is the best option for Ladybird
boxed 8mo ago
That is very good news! I've used Swift a bunch for hobby projects, and the two things that suck about it are: 1. XCode 2. Compile times I would assume if you're coming from C++ or Rust the compile time issues aren't really something you notice anyway :P
- quux 8mo ago
  You don't strictly have to use Xcode to use swift, there's a good LSP for use in other editors. That said, if you're using Swift to build an app, you're probably still going to want to use Xcode for building and debugging
  - boxed 8mo ago
    Yea, I'm building iOS apps mostly, and some macOS apps, so definitely need to use XCode :/
    - quux 8mo ago
      I have a nice workflow going for the iOS apps I work on where I use neovim for all my editing, and Xcode for building and debugging.
p-e-w 8mo ago
I know that that’s the plan, but I believe it when I see it. Mozilla invented entire language features for Rust based on Servo’s needs. It’s doubtful whether a language like Swift, which is used mostly for high-level UI code, has what it takes to serve as the foundation of a browser engine.
- binary132 8mo ago
  what technical demerits specifically make Swift a doubtfully viable option for a browser?
- no_wizard 8mo ago
  Swifts most notable use case is certainly making apps but if I recall correctly Apple has converted a good bit of their networking code to Swift. It may not be the lowest of the low level but it certainly is more flexible than meets the eye
DanOpcode 8mo ago
I know they have said that. But it feels a bit strange to me to continue to develop in C++ then, if they eventually will have to rewrite everything in Swift. Wouldn't it be better to switch language sooner rather than later in that case? Or maybe it doesn't have to take so much time to do a rewrite if an AI does it. But then I also wonder why not do it now, rather than wait.
quux 8mo ago
That is the plan, but they are stalled on that effort by difficulties getting Swift's memory model (reference counting) to play nice with Ladybird's (garbage collection) I think there was some work with the Swift team at Apple to fix this but there haven't been any updates in months
- binary132 8mo ago
  I would love it if you would provide a reference I could go look at
  - quux 8mo ago
    There's a few threads about this in the Swift forums, here's a couple: https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-and-swift-garbage-collection/76084 https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-and-swift-garbag... https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-event-loop-integration-with-swift-concurrency/78453 https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-event-loop-integ... https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-gc-and-imported-class-hierarchies/78790 https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-gc-and-imported-class-hi...
    - binary132 8mo ago
      Thank you! I look forward to perusing these.

Ladybird is going to use Swift.

torginus 8mo ago

If I remember correctly, the guy behind it used to work at Apple, maybe that has to do something with it?

binary132 8mo ago
perhaps they do not think Rust is the best option for Ladybird

boxed 8mo ago

That is very good news! I've used Swift a bunch for hobby projects, and the two things that suck about it are: 1. XCode 2. Compile times I would assume if you're coming from C++ or Rust the compile time issues aren't really something you notice anyway :P

quux 8mo ago
You don't strictly have to use Xcode to use swift, there's a good LSP for use in other editors. That said, if you're using Swift to build an app, you're probably still going to want to use Xcode for building and debugging
- boxed 8mo ago
  Yea, I'm building iOS apps mostly, and some macOS apps, so definitely need to use XCode :/
  - quux 8mo ago
    I have a nice workflow going for the iOS apps I work on where I use neovim for all my editing, and Xcode for building and debugging.

p-e-w 8mo ago

I know that that’s the plan, but I believe it when I see it. Mozilla invented entire language features for Rust based on Servo’s needs. It’s doubtful whether a language like Swift, which is used mostly for high-level UI code, has what it takes to serve as the foundation of a browser engine.

binary132 8mo ago
what technical demerits specifically make Swift a doubtfully viable option for a browser?
no_wizard 8mo ago
Swifts most notable use case is certainly making apps but if I recall correctly Apple has converted a good bit of their networking code to Swift. It may not be the lowest of the low level but it certainly is more flexible than meets the eye

DanOpcode 8mo ago

I know they have said that. But it feels a bit strange to me to continue to develop in C++ then, if they eventually will have to rewrite everything in Swift. Wouldn't it be better to switch language sooner rather than later in that case? Or maybe it doesn't have to take so much time to do a rewrite if an AI does it. But then I also wonder why not do it now, rather than wait.

quux 8mo ago

That is the plan, but they are stalled on that effort by difficulties getting Swift's memory model (reference counting) to play nice with Ladybird's (garbage collection) I think there was some work with the Swift team at Apple to fix this but there haven't been any updates in months

binary132 8mo ago
I would love it if you would provide a reference I could go look at
- quux 8mo ago
  There's a few threads about this in the Swift forums, here's a couple: https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-and-swift-garbage-collection/76084 https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-and-swift-garbag... https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-event-loop-integration-with-swift-concurrency/78453 https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-browser-event-loop-integ... https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-gc-and-imported-class-hierarchies/78790 https://forums.swift.org/t/ladybird-gc-and-imported-class-hi...
  - binary132 8mo ago
    Thank you! I look forward to perusing these.