6 ms·

It also - as seen in that screenshot, had large, always visible scrollbars where it was easy to see how far down you were in a folder or document, and could eas

by AkelaA 8mo ago

It also - as seen in that screenshot, had large, always visible scrollbars where it was easy to see how far down you were in a folder or document, and could easily click and drag to scroll to where you needed. Now in the service of minimalism we have scrollbars that consist of a thin, semi-transparent line that fades out after half a second and is nearly impossible to click and drag due to how small it is.

bsimpson 8mo ago
The default modality changed. Classic Macs were designed for the mouse or trackball. Modern Macs are designed for multitouch scrolling. When it's easy to get the scrolling infrastructure on demand, the desktop might not need the same click-first affordances.
- userbinator 8mo ago
  You're missing the fact that the scrollbars also indicate where you are in their range, which is important regardless of how you do the scrolling itself.
  - bschwindHN 8mo ago
    I think their point also covers this - since it's so easy to scroll, you can always just do a little two finger scroll wiggle to have it appear and see where you are. And that's only if you haven't configured it to always display.
    - nkmnz 8mo ago
      You don't even have to scroll. Placing two fingers on the pad makes the scrollbar appear immediately. I'm happy for each additional pixel of space on my screen, but I also think a scrollbar should be completely configurable userland behavior.
      - bschwindHN 8mo ago
        It should, unfortunately apple doesn't believe the same I suppose. I'm lucky enough that I'm happy with their defaults and don't spend much time thinking about tweaking stuff on my computers, but I can understand it being super frustrating if you're not okay with the available settings.
        nkmnz 8mo ago
        Yeah. Defaults should make the details of the system go out of the user's way, for >95% of the users, >95% of their time. The remaining <5% of users are power users and hackers, and the remaining <5% of usage are strong taste and individual hacks.
      - Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
        > but I also think a scrollbar should be completely configurable userland behavior. It is configurable, right in System Preferences > General. (Or I guess it's "Settings" now on modern systems, don't know what menu it's in there.)
        nkmnz 8mo ago
        Based on some discussions of users that have already downloaded Tahoe, I was under the impression that this is no longer possible? Also, I think it’s not possible to have the scroll bar outside of the window instead of overlaying some content.
        Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
        Hmm. I haven't used Tahoe myself, but this piece by John Gruber would seem to imply the option still exists. Maybe it got moved? https://daringfireball.net/linked/2026/01/12/macos-26-cut-corner https://daringfireball.net/linked/2026/01/12/macos-26-cut-co...
        nkmnz 8mo ago
        I dread the day I must find out :) P.S.: seems like the setting still keeps the scroll bar on top of the windows content (e.g. a website), not outside of the content.
    - RunSet 8mo ago
      > since it's so easy to scroll, you can always just do a little two finger scroll wiggle to have it appear That changes the effort required to show useful information from zero to more than zero. Which, while it not be a great quantitative change, is an enormous qualitative change. Like Chesterton's Fence, it was there for a reason. "At last (and at least) we have reclaimed that narrow vertical strip of screen real estate on the screens eastern-most vestige! Now to find a good use for it!" The true annoyance is that in many cases explicitly enabling them does not restore the original functionality.
      - quitit 8mo ago
        There is an imbalance between the harms you're pretending to endure versus: 1. The trivial ability it is to resolve, and 2. The existence of an easily accessible user setting to enable the behaviour that you desire. Fundamentally your complaint thus comes down to a gripe that the OS's defaults don't match your completely subjective idea of how just one of many OS elements should work. Which raises such an interesting question, because of all of the UX behaviours present on macOS - this is your hill?
      - userbinator 8mo ago
        At last (and at least) we have reclaimed that narrow vertical strip of screen real estate on the screens eastern-most vestige! Now to find a good use for it!" ...extra padding?
    - quitit 8mo ago
      Many of the complains surrounding the former iOS7 and today's Liquid Glass are tied to the requirement of the interface never moving. Which isn't just an unreasonable requirement, but a ridiculous one. Just like iOS7+ it is possible to position and layer interface elements in a way where the visual effects will render a screenshot difficult to read, but in practice the elements are frequently in motion or as you've already pointed out easy to make them move. That motion is what negates the layering problems, thus making visual occlusions rare, short-lived and easily resolved. There is a certain unreasonableness in ignoring that reality, and also ignoring that there is a user setting to keep a full-sized version of the scroll bars always visible. This isn't to take away from legitimate criticisms such as the issue with the resize hotbox not being updated to match the more rounded corners, but rather highlight that not all online forum criticisms comes from a bona fide place.
masklinn 8mo ago
> Now in the service of minimalism we have scrollbars that consist of a thin, semi-transparent line that fades out after half a second and is nearly impossible to click and drag due to how small it is. You can make them always on still. I've done so ever since their disappearing act started. It's not even much hidden, it's in the "Appearance" setting pane.
- Lammy 8mo ago
  They're still too small and too light. Some times when a document is big enough I'm actually not able to find the scroll thumb on macOS Sequoia. Some times wiggling the scroll thumb around by scrolling slightly back and forth with my mousewheel/trackpad helps to make it visually appear, but other times I just have to give up.
  - IshKebab 8mo ago
    Also I've noticed sometimes things don't even work correctly with "always on". Some developers don't test it because it's not the default.
    - Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
      These developers also haven't bothered to test with any mouse other than an Apple Trackpad, which turns the scrollbars on by default. Of course we all make mistakes, but anyone who has made this mistake should really fix it!
consp 8mo ago
The scrollbar thing is a more widespread mess. I've seen plenty of apps (cross platform) which hide the scrollbar as a tiny grey bar only visible when scrolling. Which on some TN panels is neigh invisible... If I can't see the scrollbar there is no additional stuff to read. I'm now pretty sure this is apple's bad design leaking though to the rest of the world.
- concinds 8mo ago
  Apple scrollbars have never looked uglier. I would prefer them to always show but they're so ugly I keep it default. On Aqua they looked great! On Windows they're still great!
quitit 8mo ago
If one chooses "Always" under the "Show scroll bars" option on the Appearance System Settings panel. They will be rewarded with thick*, always-on scroll bars that do not disappear. *They're the same thickness as Aqua.
- oneeyedpigeon 8mo ago
  Sadly, this doesn't restore the 'resize box', you just get scrollbars ending in a weird curve.
  - quitit 8mo ago
    Yes, the scroll bars settings affects the scroll bars.
- Lammy 8mo ago
  They are still very low-contrast compared to what was.
  - quitit 8mo ago
    The scroll bars for those curious: https://imgur.com/a/uhVO8IA https://imgur.com/a/uhVO8IA
zahlman 8mo ago
> Now in the service of minimalism we have scrollbars that consist of a thin, semi-transparent line that fades out after half a second and is nearly impossible to click and drag due to how small it is. This is endemic now. Cinnamon does it by default and I hate it. I only managed a partial fix, and then I had to do more work per-app (especially Firefox) to make them behave.

by AkelaA 8mo ago

bsimpson 8mo ago

The default modality changed. Classic Macs were designed for the mouse or trackball. Modern Macs are designed for multitouch scrolling. When it's easy to get the scrolling infrastructure on demand, the desktop might not need the same click-first affordances.

userbinator 8mo ago
You're missing the fact that the scrollbars also indicate where you are in their range, which is important regardless of how you do the scrolling itself.
- bschwindHN 8mo ago
  I think their point also covers this - since it's so easy to scroll, you can always just do a little two finger scroll wiggle to have it appear and see where you are. And that's only if you haven't configured it to always display.
  - nkmnz 8mo ago
    You don't even have to scroll. Placing two fingers on the pad makes the scrollbar appear immediately. I'm happy for each additional pixel of space on my screen, but I also think a scrollbar should be completely configurable userland behavior.
    - bschwindHN 8mo ago
      It should, unfortunately apple doesn't believe the same I suppose. I'm lucky enough that I'm happy with their defaults and don't spend much time thinking about tweaking stuff on my computers, but I can understand it being super frustrating if you're not okay with the available settings.
      - nkmnz 8mo ago
        Yeah. Defaults should make the details of the system go out of the user's way, for >95% of the users, >95% of their time. The remaining <5% of users are power users and hackers, and the remaining <5% of usage are strong taste and individual hacks.
    - Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
      > but I also think a scrollbar should be completely configurable userland behavior. It is configurable, right in System Preferences > General. (Or I guess it's "Settings" now on modern systems, don't know what menu it's in there.)
      - nkmnz 8mo ago
        Based on some discussions of users that have already downloaded Tahoe, I was under the impression that this is no longer possible? Also, I think it’s not possible to have the scroll bar outside of the window instead of overlaying some content.
        Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
        Hmm. I haven't used Tahoe myself, but this piece by John Gruber would seem to imply the option still exists. Maybe it got moved? https://daringfireball.net/linked/2026/01/12/macos-26-cut-corner https://daringfireball.net/linked/2026/01/12/macos-26-cut-co...
        nkmnz 8mo ago
        I dread the day I must find out :) P.S.: seems like the setting still keeps the scroll bar on top of the windows content (e.g. a website), not outside of the content.
  - RunSet 8mo ago
    > since it's so easy to scroll, you can always just do a little two finger scroll wiggle to have it appear That changes the effort required to show useful information from zero to more than zero. Which, while it not be a great quantitative change, is an enormous qualitative change. Like Chesterton's Fence, it was there for a reason. "At last (and at least) we have reclaimed that narrow vertical strip of screen real estate on the screens eastern-most vestige! Now to find a good use for it!" The true annoyance is that in many cases explicitly enabling them does not restore the original functionality.
    - quitit 8mo ago
      There is an imbalance between the harms you're pretending to endure versus: 1. The trivial ability it is to resolve, and 2. The existence of an easily accessible user setting to enable the behaviour that you desire. Fundamentally your complaint thus comes down to a gripe that the OS's defaults don't match your completely subjective idea of how just one of many OS elements should work. Which raises such an interesting question, because of all of the UX behaviours present on macOS - this is your hill?
    - userbinator 8mo ago
      At last (and at least) we have reclaimed that narrow vertical strip of screen real estate on the screens eastern-most vestige! Now to find a good use for it!" ...extra padding?
  - quitit 8mo ago
    Many of the complains surrounding the former iOS7 and today's Liquid Glass are tied to the requirement of the interface never moving. Which isn't just an unreasonable requirement, but a ridiculous one. Just like iOS7+ it is possible to position and layer interface elements in a way where the visual effects will render a screenshot difficult to read, but in practice the elements are frequently in motion or as you've already pointed out easy to make them move. That motion is what negates the layering problems, thus making visual occlusions rare, short-lived and easily resolved. There is a certain unreasonableness in ignoring that reality, and also ignoring that there is a user setting to keep a full-sized version of the scroll bars always visible. This isn't to take away from legitimate criticisms such as the issue with the resize hotbox not being updated to match the more rounded corners, but rather highlight that not all online forum criticisms comes from a bona fide place.

masklinn 8mo ago

> Now in the service of minimalism we have scrollbars that consist of a thin, semi-transparent line that fades out after half a second and is nearly impossible to click and drag due to how small it is. You can make them always on still. I've done so ever since their disappearing act started. It's not even much hidden, it's in the "Appearance" setting pane.

Lammy 8mo ago
They're still too small and too light. Some times when a document is big enough I'm actually not able to find the scroll thumb on macOS Sequoia. Some times wiggling the scroll thumb around by scrolling slightly back and forth with my mousewheel/trackpad helps to make it visually appear, but other times I just have to give up.
- IshKebab 8mo ago
  Also I've noticed sometimes things don't even work correctly with "always on". Some developers don't test it because it's not the default.
  - Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
    These developers also haven't bothered to test with any mouse other than an Apple Trackpad, which turns the scrollbars on by default. Of course we all make mistakes, but anyone who has made this mistake should really fix it!

consp 8mo ago

The scrollbar thing is a more widespread mess. I've seen plenty of apps (cross platform) which hide the scrollbar as a tiny grey bar only visible when scrolling. Which on some TN panels is neigh invisible... If I can't see the scrollbar there is no additional stuff to read. I'm now pretty sure this is apple's bad design leaking though to the rest of the world.

concinds 8mo ago
Apple scrollbars have never looked uglier. I would prefer them to always show but they're so ugly I keep it default. On Aqua they looked great! On Windows they're still great!

quitit 8mo ago

If one chooses "Always" under the "Show scroll bars" option on the Appearance System Settings panel. They will be rewarded with thick*, always-on scroll bars that do not disappear. *They're the same thickness as Aqua.

oneeyedpigeon 8mo ago
Sadly, this doesn't restore the 'resize box', you just get scrollbars ending in a weird curve.
- quitit 8mo ago
  Yes, the scroll bars settings affects the scroll bars.
Lammy 8mo ago
They are still very low-contrast compared to what was.
- quitit 8mo ago
  The scroll bars for those curious: https://imgur.com/a/uhVO8IA https://imgur.com/a/uhVO8IA

zahlman 8mo ago

> Now in the service of minimalism we have scrollbars that consist of a thin, semi-transparent line that fades out after half a second and is nearly impossible to click and drag due to how small it is. This is endemic now. Cinnamon does it by default and I hate it. I only managed a partial fix, and then I had to do more work per-app (especially Firefox) to make them behave.