7 ms·

It is, at this point, an easily verifiable fact that software engineering jobs in Europe are en masse poorly paid relative to the equivalent positions in the US

by noo_u 8mo ago

It is, at this point, an easily verifiable fact that software engineering jobs in Europe are en masse poorly paid relative to the equivalent positions in the US, and the majority of the EU companies that actually pay well are actually US based. This causes a lot of outflow of talent. That VC funding in Europe is atrocious is obvious to anyone who has had to go through it, and have fun letting a poor performer go from your 5 person startup. Your polite wishful responses are frustrating to read to anyone who's had to go through this hell.

palata 8mo ago
Are you saying that Europe can't compete with the US monopolies because all the good developers move to the US?
- rdm_blackhole 8mo ago
  Yes that is what OP is saying and OP is correct. If you are young, talented and you have a crazy idea that might just work and if you are given the opportunity then you go to the US every-time. Why? Because it makes sense. Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US or better yet, start your own company there and then expand in Europe after building it knowing that if you eventually sell it, you get to keep a lot of the sale price. Talented people don't work for nothing. Motivated and ambitious people don't work for nothing. If Europe wants to see it's own tech giants emerge, then it's needs to compensate founders and employees well. That's as simple as it is. Unfortunately it's just not the case at the moment and until that changes, the most ambitious Europeans will continue leaving and building companies on the other side of the Atlantic.
  - palata 8mo ago
    > Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US Have you ever talked to Europeans in your life?
    - rdm_blackhole 8mo ago
      Have you? I am a European business owner just FYI. I know very well how much taxes I am paying each month.
      - menaerus 8mo ago
        It always amazes me that there is a subset of EU people here on HN who are so detached from reality that it makes me wonder if these same people are sitting in Brussels board making decisions. According to the sh*thole in which EU ended up, it is not completely implausible. Can't agree more with what you're saying. My experience is the same.
        rdm_blackhole 8mo ago
        I hear you. It's frustrating really to have these conversations with people who will deny the reality this much. Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions that everyone should be asking, which are amongst others "how can we fix this mess?" , you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU for spite when it couldn't be further from the truth. It's sad but not surprising and until that changes then nothing will change. Europeans need to start being humble again and need to get to work otherwise then we shouldn't be surprised if the US squeezes us from one side while China out-innovates us from the other side. In the meantime the EU is debating if/when it should amend it's cookie law, I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this point.
        palata 8mo ago
        > you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU That's not what I think. But you obviously lack the level of empathy you would need to accept that I may think differently. I accept that you think the way you think: you benefit from it as a business owner. > Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions Yeah, because you are so superior to everybody else that people should ask you question, and their opinions are not worth your time. "I am the best, I am so frustrated that so many people don't recognise it".
- noo_u 8mo ago
  Did I use the word "all" anywhere in my comment? There are good developers in Europe. What I am saying is that there would have been even more of them had the incentives not been so lackluster. More talent seems to generally result in a greater competitive ability. Fwiw, I have doubts that currently Europe can compete with the US at the startup level, let alone at the bigco one. I am not trying to drag Europe down - it worries me that sophisticated complacency, overconfidence based on the achievements of previous generations, and addiction to comfort, will start eroding the very aspects that make it a great place to live at.
- CrimsonRain 8mo ago
  because EU suffocates good developers, gives free roaming to mediocre ones. EU cant compete with anything US or China except making more cookie laws.

by noo_u 8mo ago

palata 8mo ago

Are you saying that Europe can't compete with the US monopolies because all the good developers move to the US?

rdm_blackhole 8mo ago
Yes that is what OP is saying and OP is correct. If you are young, talented and you have a crazy idea that might just work and if you are given the opportunity then you go to the US every-time. Why? Because it makes sense. Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US or better yet, start your own company there and then expand in Europe after building it knowing that if you eventually sell it, you get to keep a lot of the sale price. Talented people don't work for nothing. Motivated and ambitious people don't work for nothing. If Europe wants to see it's own tech giants emerge, then it's needs to compensate founders and employees well. That's as simple as it is. Unfortunately it's just not the case at the moment and until that changes, the most ambitious Europeans will continue leaving and building companies on the other side of the Atlantic.
- palata 8mo ago
  > Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US Have you ever talked to Europeans in your life?
  - rdm_blackhole 8mo ago
    Have you? I am a European business owner just FYI. I know very well how much taxes I am paying each month.
    - menaerus 8mo ago
      It always amazes me that there is a subset of EU people here on HN who are so detached from reality that it makes me wonder if these same people are sitting in Brussels board making decisions. According to the sh*thole in which EU ended up, it is not completely implausible. Can't agree more with what you're saying. My experience is the same.
      - rdm_blackhole 8mo ago
        I hear you. It's frustrating really to have these conversations with people who will deny the reality this much. Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions that everyone should be asking, which are amongst others "how can we fix this mess?" , you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU for spite when it couldn't be further from the truth. It's sad but not surprising and until that changes then nothing will change. Europeans need to start being humble again and need to get to work otherwise then we shouldn't be surprised if the US squeezes us from one side while China out-innovates us from the other side. In the meantime the EU is debating if/when it should amend it's cookie law, I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this point.
        palata 8mo ago
        > you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU That's not what I think. But you obviously lack the level of empathy you would need to accept that I may think differently. I accept that you think the way you think: you benefit from it as a business owner. > Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions Yeah, because you are so superior to everybody else that people should ask you question, and their opinions are not worth your time. "I am the best, I am so frustrated that so many people don't recognise it".
noo_u 8mo ago
Did I use the word "all" anywhere in my comment? There are good developers in Europe. What I am saying is that there would have been even more of them had the incentives not been so lackluster. More talent seems to generally result in a greater competitive ability. Fwiw, I have doubts that currently Europe can compete with the US at the startup level, let alone at the bigco one. I am not trying to drag Europe down - it worries me that sophisticated complacency, overconfidence based on the achievements of previous generations, and addiction to comfort, will start eroding the very aspects that make it a great place to live at.
CrimsonRain 8mo ago
because EU suffocates good developers, gives free roaming to mediocre ones. EU cant compete with anything US or China except making more cookie laws.