5 ms·

It's not only at groceries stores, it's everywhere. For example at TSA security line and (sometimes) when boarding flights at the gate. You can (and should) exe

by ipince 8mo ago

It's not only at groceries stores, it's everywhere. For example at TSA security line and (sometimes) when boarding flights at the gate. You can (and should) exercise your right to opt-out every single time, before that right is taken away. Omg I sound like Richard Stallman... anyway, he was right all along.

Hnrobert42 8mo ago
I used to always opt out at TSA checkpoints. Then I decided that of all places, the airport makes the most sense to use biometrics. I mean, a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent. What scares me about TSA using it is that it normalizes its use. Next it's at stadiums. Then Wegmans. If it would stop at airports, then I would be okay with it.
- fc417fc802 8mo ago
  > a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent Not at all? A human isn't committing you to long term memory let alone entering a detailed sketch into a centralized database.
  - Hnrobert42 8mo ago
    No. TSA deletes the information it captures after 24 hours. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-tsa-protect-all-data-eg-photos-collected-during-testing https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-t...
    - ibejoeb 8mo ago
      Regardless of the fact that they can simply lie to you, it doesn't say that. The question is "Does TSA protect all data (e.g., photos)...?" What does protect mean? The stated common case is that a photo is ephemeral and is removed (from where?) after it is used. Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. But that's just generous reading, anyway. There are so many ambiguities that it's not really worth the trouble to attempt any rigorous analysis of it. "In rare instances TSA will collect and temporarily retain photos and data..." How rare? Doesn't matter: then what happens? "...data collection mode events are limited in time and place..." Damn unrelenting spacetime. "TSA’s facial comparison technologies adhere to DHS and TSA cybersecurity requirements." Restatement of the problem.
      - fc417fc802 8mo ago
        Agreed. Provides no obvious benefit to either me or society at large. Normalizes collection of biometrics. Implementation details not easy to verify - they could be lying or could silently change things later. The entire scheme has a very high abuse potential. Equipment and personnel set up at major ports and their presence normalized. Turnkey authoritarianism at its finest.
      - gs17 8mo ago
        > Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. If we want to be truly generous in interpreting it, the new sample would be deleted and the comparison is done against the photos they have on file from your ID/passport (although, since a foreigner can do it on their first visit to the US, it might just be based on scanning the document you provide). Of course, single-sample-per-person facial recognition is pretty limited, but it's security theater anyways.
        ibejoeb 8mo ago
        That's too generous because even that document says that there that data is used for other purposes without detailing any of that. There are no timelines. Even when they say "temporary," when is that? Until 2300? Temporarily stored on the device until it's been stored remotely? Temporary until the NN is trained? The cat's out of the bag, anyway. They already have a perfect dataset and surveillance mechanism. But it'd be nice to stop continuing to perfect it.
        duskdozer 8mo ago
        I think the mistake is assuming they're purely doing a 2d pixel array photo comparison and not a 3d scan. This would also satisfy their statement that they delete the photos, while still being able to store data that could be used to reproduce the photos.
      - danaris 8mo ago
        I just flew from the US to Europe; at each point where I had to get my picture taken, the machine had a label on it that clearly said they would delete my data after 24 hours. (Or after use, I don't remember the precise time frame.) Were they lying? Possibly. But this is not a matter of them trying to use weasel wording to trick you into thinking they're claiming something they're not.
- tmerc 8mo ago
  Humans forget. The TSA allegedly deletes your photo, but they're quiet about the rest of the data they collected from that photo.
Simulacra 8mo ago
What really annoys me is when I politely decline the facial scan of TSA, and the agent makes some snide comment about my picture on my identification or something. And the next time it happens that I get a smart ass comment like that, I'm going to politely ask him if that's his opinion or was he told to say that.
- 46493168 8mo ago
  >And the next time it happens that I get a smart ass comment like that, I'm going to politely ask him if that's his opinion or was he told to say that. I get the temptation to do this, I really do, but I really don't recommend this. The TSA is in a position to make your day much worse. It's better just to opt-out and say nothing. Opting out is well within your rights (it's posted on the sign at the start of the line). Follow instructions. Keep your mouth shut. Eyes forward. On your way.
  - duskdozer 8mo ago
    OTOH, if that person can afford it by not belonging to a vulnerable group, they should be the one to be a bit of a pain in the ass in the face of intrusive practices.
- gs17 8mo ago
  I'm pretty sure they're told some things to say. I overheard one telling someone the line about how it doesn't matter because there's cameras everywhere so you shouldn't opt out. Bizarrely, the agents seemed to be checking IDs manually that day!
holysoles 8mo ago
I always say I'm opting out as loudly as possible, many people don't even know that you can opt-out. The signs are often small and out sight.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
RSHEPP 8mo ago
Make sure to opt-out before handing your ID over to the agent. They will claim you can no longer opt-out at that point, even before scanning. I had one plead to my wife to go through, because they are being watched by management and it wouldn't look good.

by ipince 8mo ago

Hnrobert42 8mo ago

I used to always opt out at TSA checkpoints. Then I decided that of all places, the airport makes the most sense to use biometrics. I mean, a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent. What scares me about TSA using it is that it normalizes its use. Next it's at stadiums. Then Wegmans. If it would stop at airports, then I would be okay with it.

fc417fc802 8mo ago
> a human comparing my face to my ID is functionally equivalent Not at all? A human isn't committing you to long term memory let alone entering a detailed sketch into a centralized database.
- Hnrobert42 8mo ago
  No. TSA deletes the information it captures after 24 hours. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-tsa-protect-all-data-eg-photos-collected-during-testing https://www.tsa.gov/travel/frequently-asked-questions/does-t...
  - ibejoeb 8mo ago
    Regardless of the fact that they can simply lie to you, it doesn't say that. The question is "Does TSA protect all data (e.g., photos)...?" What does protect mean? The stated common case is that a photo is ephemeral and is removed (from where?) after it is used. Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. But that's just generous reading, anyway. There are so many ambiguities that it's not really worth the trouble to attempt any rigorous analysis of it. "In rare instances TSA will collect and temporarily retain photos and data..." How rare? Doesn't matter: then what happens? "...data collection mode events are limited in time and place..." Damn unrelenting spacetime. "TSA’s facial comparison technologies adhere to DHS and TSA cybersecurity requirements." Restatement of the problem.
    - fc417fc802 8mo ago
      Agreed. Provides no obvious benefit to either me or society at large. Normalizes collection of biometrics. Implementation details not easy to verify - they could be lying or could silently change things later. The entire scheme has a very high abuse potential. Equipment and personnel set up at major ports and their presence normalized. Turnkey authoritarianism at its finest.
    - gs17 8mo ago
      > Now, they're using it for facial recognition. They didn't get a facial recognition system by deleting photos, so we know based on the premise that some representation of the data in the photo (your likeness) exists in persistent form. If we want to be truly generous in interpreting it, the new sample would be deleted and the comparison is done against the photos they have on file from your ID/passport (although, since a foreigner can do it on their first visit to the US, it might just be based on scanning the document you provide). Of course, single-sample-per-person facial recognition is pretty limited, but it's security theater anyways.
      - ibejoeb 8mo ago
        That's too generous because even that document says that there that data is used for other purposes without detailing any of that. There are no timelines. Even when they say "temporary," when is that? Until 2300? Temporarily stored on the device until it's been stored remotely? Temporary until the NN is trained? The cat's out of the bag, anyway. They already have a perfect dataset and surveillance mechanism. But it'd be nice to stop continuing to perfect it.
      - duskdozer 8mo ago
        I think the mistake is assuming they're purely doing a 2d pixel array photo comparison and not a 3d scan. This would also satisfy their statement that they delete the photos, while still being able to store data that could be used to reproduce the photos.
    - danaris 8mo ago
      I just flew from the US to Europe; at each point where I had to get my picture taken, the machine had a label on it that clearly said they would delete my data after 24 hours. (Or after use, I don't remember the precise time frame.) Were they lying? Possibly. But this is not a matter of them trying to use weasel wording to trick you into thinking they're claiming something they're not.
tmerc 8mo ago
Humans forget. The TSA allegedly deletes your photo, but they're quiet about the rest of the data they collected from that photo.

Simulacra 8mo ago

What really annoys me is when I politely decline the facial scan of TSA, and the agent makes some snide comment about my picture on my identification or something. And the next time it happens that I get a smart ass comment like that, I'm going to politely ask him if that's his opinion or was he told to say that.

46493168 8mo ago
>And the next time it happens that I get a smart ass comment like that, I'm going to politely ask him if that's his opinion or was he told to say that. I get the temptation to do this, I really do, but I really don't recommend this. The TSA is in a position to make your day much worse. It's better just to opt-out and say nothing. Opting out is well within your rights (it's posted on the sign at the start of the line). Follow instructions. Keep your mouth shut. Eyes forward. On your way.
- duskdozer 8mo ago
  OTOH, if that person can afford it by not belonging to a vulnerable group, they should be the one to be a bit of a pain in the ass in the face of intrusive practices.
gs17 8mo ago
I'm pretty sure they're told some things to say. I overheard one telling someone the line about how it doesn't matter because there's cameras everywhere so you shouldn't opt out. Bizarrely, the agents seemed to be checking IDs manually that day!

holysoles 8mo ago

I always say I'm opting out as loudly as possible, many people don't even know that you can opt-out. The signs are often small and out sight.

deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

RSHEPP 8mo ago

Make sure to opt-out before handing your ID over to the agent. They will claim you can no longer opt-out at that point, even before scanning. I had one plead to my wife to go through, because they are being watched by management and it wouldn't look good.