7 ms·

More women needed in technology

16 points by soitgoes 14y ago

rayiner 14y ago
As someone with a -4 week old daughter, this is a subject at the forefront of my mind. I always see tremendous skepticism whenever an article comes out saying that we need to reduce the gender gap in tech. The attitude seems to be that if a gap exists then it is natural and there is no point in taking affirmative steps to reduce it. What I find interesting is that these same people probably wouldn't apply this reasoning to many other situations. They're often totally willing to believe that we have too many people in liberal arts programs and not enough in engineering programs, or not enough people going to college or too many people going to college. They're often willing to believe that we have a "digital divide" that needs to be corrected, or that there aren't enough people with science backgrounds in Congress, or any of a number of other ideas predicated on the presumption that positive action is required to address some imbalance in society.
- Camillo 14y ago
  So you have already decided that your four week old daughter wants to become a programmer? Why not wait and see how she feels? At the dawn of programming, it was stereotyped as a profession for women (yes, really). Later on, men became more prevalent. But it's not like women were ever barred from the field, or from getting an education in general. In fact, nowadays most people who graduate from university are women. Given all that, I get the impression that the constant hand-wringing about the dearth of women in tech is more about companies hoping to expand the labor pool for what is still a highly-sought and well-paid profession, rather than about empowering women to do what they want. The former is still a legitimate concern, but not something a father needs to lose any sleep over.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    I think it's disingenuous to chalk up the underrepresentation of women in the tech sector to merely self-selection. You really have to examine the structural issues that might cause women to select out of a well-paying, in demand career. I'll use the legal field as an example because I think there is a lot the technology field can learn from it. Women had been allowed into law school and admitted into state bars since the turn of the century. However, as of 1960, 96% of law students were men. In the 1970s, law schools and law firms took affirmative steps to encourage women to join the profession. By the late 1990s, enrollment was almost even. Today, 45% of law students are female as are about 45% of incoming associates at large law firms. 20% of firm partners are women, and about a third of newly-promoted partners are women. Neither law schools nor law firms take directed affirmative steps anymore to recruit women (beyond the usual affinity groups and the like). The gender equalization efforts were self-propagating. Once the field had a critical mass of women, women self-selected into the field at similar rates to men. I think it's weak to assume that women just don't want to do engineering work. Would the number of women who wanted to go into engineering be as low today if there were a reasonable number of women already in the field? I don't think so.
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      To get women into medicine, law, advertising, etc, it was sufficient to open the door. Why is that insufficient in technology? What makes tech different from the other fields you mentioned? (That lack of "affirmative steps" is not a good explanation, since the "affirmative steps" persist in tech even today.)
      - rayiner 14y ago
        Your premise is false. Law schools and law firms actively marketed themselves to women and actively tried to enroll or hire a certain number of women. Tech companies have never taken such measures. Heck, only the biggest companies een pay lip service to the idea of trying to recruit more women.
        yummyfajitas 14y ago
        Engineering schools and big engineering firms do the same. I'd be very surprised if small (e.g. 5-10 person) law firms ever put any more effort into recruiting women than small tech firms.
- alid 14y ago
  Amen! Thank you for highlighting this. I've been following threads such as these on HN - I'm surprised and saddened at the level of sexist (sometimes even misogynistic) comments they seem to procure. To me, the overall weight of comments show an undue amount of skepticism. They'll fastidiously pick apart the research or article semantics, and keenly pull out standard diversionary or derailing tactics. Strange considering we're far from living in a meritocratic society (as illustrated by studies such as these: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201...). On the upside, I've created a program to log everyone who flaunts sexist comments on HN and elsewhere - they will never do business with me. All the best!
  - rayiner 14y ago
    That's a great article. The takeaway is right here: "Whenever the subject of women in science comes up, there are people fiercely committed to the idea that sexism does not exist. They will point to everything and anything else to explain differences while becoming angry and condescending if you even suggest that discrimination could be a factor. But these people are wrong." boom headshot.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    I think you have to take into account that people value their personal experiences. We all have encountered women in our lives and sometimes in Tech. Since I never attempted to rape a tech woman, or diminished their achievements, I tend to find the typical portrait of male tech environments insulting. From my personal experience they are not true, and you have to provide a lot of arguments to override people's personal experiences.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      Discussions of gender equality: the only subject on Hacker News or Reddit where someone will, with a straight face, try to refute an empirical study with anecdotal evidence.
      - 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- dagw 14y ago
  Ask people to name the first few big name fashion designers that come to mind. How many of them do you think will be men? Why do you think that number should be bigger?
- rayiner 14y ago
  I'm not sure what I'm more amused by. The fact that you don't realize that the fashion industry is dominated by men, or that the societal importance of the demographics of the tech industry can be compared to that of the fashion industry.
peteretep 14y ago
This article appears deeply confused, and doesn't seem to bear much relationship to its title. By "more women needed in technology", what it appears to actually be advocating is "more women needed in designing products for women, because men are condescending in their design of female-oriented products". ... and ok. Then the author follows it up by saying "it's basic economics! More women will buy your products!", but doesn't follow that up with "and so market forces will make it happen!". But whatever. If you want to try and change how an industry talks to your group, have at it. But then also the author has taken the time to produce a cartoon book telling young women to go in to computers and technology, because (from the image provided) apparently all young women ever hear is badly-spelled messages telling them that they should focus on home economics (untrue) and that programming generally involves working in dark cubicles (sometimes true) and being a nerd (all too true). Why doesn't the author already know that ...? Because the author, and head of this campaign ... isn't actually a woman in technology. She's a woman in advertising, who has decided that more women need to be in technology. Not her, just other women. So how does she know that women can thrive in technology? How is she able to legitimately address their concerns? It all feels a bit condescending towards ... people in technology. "Here I am, a person outside of your field, telling you that you talk to women all wrong, and I'm going to fix it with a swish advertising and graphics campaign". If you want the message to be taken seriously, get Marissa Meyer to say it. Bring me the opinion of Danese Cooper. Shouldn't tech role models come from, ya know, tech? Conclusion: the message I probably agree with. Diversity of every sort in technical teams is a great thing in my previous experience. But what the hell is this article about, and who is this advertising exec to tell deliver it?
- peteretep 14y ago
  http://ladygeek.com/team-2/ http://ladygeek.com/team-2/ <-- where is programmer geek?
  - thisone 14y ago
    link is dead at the moment. I've worked with them and considering they thought it was an good idea to pitch a c# developer for a c position, I'd rather they didn't have a programmer geek category.
Tichy 14y ago
"Examples of getting it wrong are abundant: A common 'for-the-ladies' strategy is to take last year's product, re-release it at a slightly lower-price point, slightly smaller and clad in pink plastic." The fact seems to be, pink gadgets sell. So I am not sure that the companies are "getting it wrong". Not saying that there couldn't be a better way. Also wondering about the oft cited former communist East European states with their high percentage of female engineers. I have heard that not many of them actually work as engineers. Don't have numbers, though. I wish more women would go into engineering, but to be honest, my attitude has become a bit cynical: I think women have more attractive choices (not in the least becoming stay at home mums, or working for unattractive salaries in fun jobs because husbands bring in the big money - fun jobs including kindergardener, nurse, fashion shop owners,...). Engineering, or let's talk about programming, is not actually that much fun in the real world. You sit in front of a screen all day long and wreck your brain. Talking with people is better for the soul, and women are smart enough to realize that. Yes, bring on the downvotes. I am not saying this is a law of nature, just that it is the current state of things for a variety of reasons.
- barry-cotter 14y ago
  Speaking as a current kindergarten teacher it's as.intellectually stimulating as watching paint dry. Nice and rewarding helping and educating kids but all I can say is thank fuck for the internet and naptime. And being a nurse is not a “fun” job. Working in fashion or the arts is one of those things where most of the compensation doesn't come in monetary form but neither healthcare nor education are fun like that.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    Why did you become a kindergardener? Did you expect it to be more fun? And since you don't consider it to be fun anymore, have you considered to take up programming? If not, why not? As for nursing, no it is not "fun" in the strict sense, but I think it comes with a lot of expectations of emotional reward, helping other people and so on. I was using "fun" loosely. Btw, as a father with a kindergarden going kid, I hope the kindergardeners have some enthusiasm for the job... If you need help entering programming, get in touch. I live in Germany, though. Edit: actually, programming gets boring after a while, too, and people ponder steps to make it interesting again. Maybe the same could be done for kindergardening? Can't you think of ways of making it more fun again? A change from the routine perhaps? I worry a lot about my kid just doing standard stuff at kindergarden. On the other hand maybe it is unrealistic to expect more, and kids first have to go through the basic motions. (There are no lego mindstorm sets at my kid's kindergarden - but then kindergarden kids can't be expected to program, I suppose. But perhaps they could build robots, and the kindergardener could do the programming).
shanelja 14y ago
Here is my $0.02: I believe that the tech industry is dominated by men, that's a given, but I don't necessarily believe that we need more women, or even more men. At the moment, the tech industry has a surplus of jobs and not enough bodies to fill the desks, so what we need is more people, irrespective of age, gender, race, etc. In my opinion, it is extremely sexist to even suggest that we need more women in tech, it implies that the (large amount of) men who are currently in the industry are not doing their jobs correctly and should be replaced by women, that women would do a better job; granted, some women would do a better job, but so would some men. You can not force equality (a thing which you already have) upon the masses, but look at it like this, there aren't less women in tech because men don't want them there, there are just less women who are inclined to go in to technology, this isn't a case of "Male oppression is forcing us not to follow our dream", it's merely a case of less women having this dream. Let's be honest, from our earliest childhood years, we are given this impression that certain activities are for certain genders, and yes, to some degree this is wrong, I happen to like the colour pink and my sister absolutely loved playing in dirt, to my mothers disdain, but these young character building years are what defines us, the fact is that there are two genders, not one, and they are not always equal, we need to celebrate these differences instead of trying to subdue them in to none-existence. Personally, the finest developer I have ever met was a woman, so I have nothing against women in tech, but let's look at the fact, from a young age, boys are taught that playing computer games is a boys thing, playing these games often fosters a natural ability to understand computers. If you play model of honour enough times, you begin to recognize the path finding model which the computer takes, and at a very primal level you begin to understand the most simple AI elements, this experience builds your understanding of how computers works. I'm not saying this is the only way to get in to computers, I'm just giving the example which was relevant to myself. tl;dr: Stop blaming men for the lack of women in tech, take a look at your own base camp, men have given you equality for years now, just accept that most women don't want to go in to tech; not because they are women, but because, let's face it, we're a big bunch of nerds and foreveraloners and most sane people would do anything they could to stay out of this space.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- 14y ago
nadam 14y ago
I hate the expression 'working in technology'. Because it does not say anything about what a person actually does or knows or likes. (For example I am a prototypical hacker/programmer, but not working in the 'tech industry'. I work as a software developer in a different industry right now (with lots of woman coworkers by the way).) So the author wants more women in marketing. (tech-marketing) Ok. But if my now 5 year old daughter will be interested in programming, math, algorithms, I will not force her to learn marketing just because Belinda Parmar says so. Yes I will be happy to talk about marketing with my daughter when she grows up, I am interested in marketing, but I equally happily will talk about the beauty of Hindley–Milner type inference with her.:)
Wintamute 14y ago
This article is odd. Isn't the real issue here that there are so few female programmers, computer scientists and researchers, i.e. the people actually making tech? Whether there are insufficient numbers of women in tech company marketing roles to effectively market products at a female audience seems to be a totally separate issue and ... well, somehow less problematic to me. It also seems quite demeaning to suggest that the only reason a girl would want to get into tech is to work at targeting advertising and PR at her own gender. How about a campaign to drastically improve science, math and computer science teaching at school from a young age, and work hard to ensure both genders get enough exposure so that the kids with the most aptitude and passion, whatever their gender, get a real chance to choose tech as a career path, instead of this marketing and PR bullshit?
countessa 14y ago
oh the irony - the article notes that "pink it and shrink it approach represents typically shallow thinking" and then we are invited to check out the twitter feed and website of "Belinda Parmar who is the author of Little Miss Geek".....
adaml_623 14y ago
"It's time to change things. Any chief executive with half an ounce of sense should be putting their blood, sweat and tears into ensuring that the make-up of their company mirrors the make-up of their market." What if my target market is teenagers...

16 points by soitgoes 14y ago

As someone with a -4 week old daughter, this is a subject at the forefront of my mind. I always see tremendous skepticism whenever an article comes out saying that we need to reduce the gender gap in tech. The attitude seems to be that if a gap exists then it is natural and there is no point in taking affirmative steps to reduce it. What I find interesting is that these same people probably wouldn't apply this reasoning to many other situations. They're often totally willing to believe that we have too many people in liberal arts programs and not enough in engineering programs, or not enough people going to college or too many people going to college. They're often willing to believe that we have a "digital divide" that needs to be corrected, or that there aren't enough people with science backgrounds in Congress, or any of a number of other ideas predicated on the presumption that positive action is required to address some imbalance in society.

Camillo 14y ago
So you have already decided that your four week old daughter wants to become a programmer? Why not wait and see how she feels? At the dawn of programming, it was stereotyped as a profession for women (yes, really). Later on, men became more prevalent. But it's not like women were ever barred from the field, or from getting an education in general. In fact, nowadays most people who graduate from university are women. Given all that, I get the impression that the constant hand-wringing about the dearth of women in tech is more about companies hoping to expand the labor pool for what is still a highly-sought and well-paid profession, rather than about empowering women to do what they want. The former is still a legitimate concern, but not something a father needs to lose any sleep over.
- rayiner 14y ago
  I think it's disingenuous to chalk up the underrepresentation of women in the tech sector to merely self-selection. You really have to examine the structural issues that might cause women to select out of a well-paying, in demand career. I'll use the legal field as an example because I think there is a lot the technology field can learn from it. Women had been allowed into law school and admitted into state bars since the turn of the century. However, as of 1960, 96% of law students were men. In the 1970s, law schools and law firms took affirmative steps to encourage women to join the profession. By the late 1990s, enrollment was almost even. Today, 45% of law students are female as are about 45% of incoming associates at large law firms. 20% of firm partners are women, and about a third of newly-promoted partners are women. Neither law schools nor law firms take directed affirmative steps anymore to recruit women (beyond the usual affinity groups and the like). The gender equalization efforts were self-propagating. Once the field had a critical mass of women, women self-selected into the field at similar rates to men. I think it's weak to assume that women just don't want to do engineering work. Would the number of women who wanted to go into engineering be as low today if there were a reasonable number of women already in the field? I don't think so.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    To get women into medicine, law, advertising, etc, it was sufficient to open the door. Why is that insufficient in technology? What makes tech different from the other fields you mentioned? (That lack of "affirmative steps" is not a good explanation, since the "affirmative steps" persist in tech even today.)
    - rayiner 14y ago
      Your premise is false. Law schools and law firms actively marketed themselves to women and actively tried to enroll or hire a certain number of women. Tech companies have never taken such measures. Heck, only the biggest companies een pay lip service to the idea of trying to recruit more women.
      - yummyfajitas 14y ago
        Engineering schools and big engineering firms do the same. I'd be very surprised if small (e.g. 5-10 person) law firms ever put any more effort into recruiting women than small tech firms.
alid 14y ago
Amen! Thank you for highlighting this. I've been following threads such as these on HN - I'm surprised and saddened at the level of sexist (sometimes even misogynistic) comments they seem to procure. To me, the overall weight of comments show an undue amount of skepticism. They'll fastidiously pick apart the research or article semantics, and keenly pull out standard diversionary or derailing tactics. Strange considering we're far from living in a meritocratic society (as illustrated by studies such as these: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201...). On the upside, I've created a program to log everyone who flaunts sexist comments on HN and elsewhere - they will never do business with me. All the best!
- rayiner 14y ago
  That's a great article. The takeaway is right here: "Whenever the subject of women in science comes up, there are people fiercely committed to the idea that sexism does not exist. They will point to everything and anything else to explain differences while becoming angry and condescending if you even suggest that discrimination could be a factor. But these people are wrong." boom headshot.
- Tichy 14y ago
  I think you have to take into account that people value their personal experiences. We all have encountered women in our lives and sometimes in Tech. Since I never attempted to rape a tech woman, or diminished their achievements, I tend to find the typical portrait of male tech environments insulting. From my personal experience they are not true, and you have to provide a lot of arguments to override people's personal experiences.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Discussions of gender equality: the only subject on Hacker News or Reddit where someone will, with a straight face, try to refute an empirical study with anecdotal evidence.
    - 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

dagw 14y ago
Ask people to name the first few big name fashion designers that come to mind. How many of them do you think will be men? Why do you think that number should be bigger?
rayiner 14y ago
I'm not sure what I'm more amused by. The fact that you don't realize that the fashion industry is dominated by men, or that the societal importance of the demographics of the tech industry can be compared to that of the fashion industry.

peteretep 14y ago

This article appears deeply confused, and doesn't seem to bear much relationship to its title. By "more women needed in technology", what it appears to actually be advocating is "more women needed in designing products for women, because men are condescending in their design of female-oriented products". ... and ok. Then the author follows it up by saying "it's basic economics! More women will buy your products!", but doesn't follow that up with "and so market forces will make it happen!". But whatever. If you want to try and change how an industry talks to your group, have at it. But then also the author has taken the time to produce a cartoon book telling young women to go in to computers and technology, because (from the image provided) apparently all young women ever hear is badly-spelled messages telling them that they should focus on home economics (untrue) and that programming generally involves working in dark cubicles (sometimes true) and being a nerd (all too true). Why doesn't the author already know that ...? Because the author, and head of this campaign ... isn't actually a woman in technology. She's a woman in advertising, who has decided that more women need to be in technology. Not her, just other women. So how does she know that women can thrive in technology? How is she able to legitimately address their concerns? It all feels a bit condescending towards ... people in technology. "Here I am, a person outside of your field, telling you that you talk to women all wrong, and I'm going to fix it with a swish advertising and graphics campaign". If you want the message to be taken seriously, get Marissa Meyer to say it. Bring me the opinion of Danese Cooper. Shouldn't tech role models come from, ya know, tech? Conclusion: the message I probably agree with. Diversity of every sort in technical teams is a great thing in my previous experience. But what the hell is this article about, and who is this advertising exec to tell deliver it?

peteretep 14y ago
http://ladygeek.com/team-2/ http://ladygeek.com/team-2/ <-- where is programmer geek?
- thisone 14y ago
  link is dead at the moment. I've worked with them and considering they thought it was an good idea to pitch a c# developer for a c position, I'd rather they didn't have a programmer geek category.

Tichy 14y ago

"Examples of getting it wrong are abundant: A common 'for-the-ladies' strategy is to take last year's product, re-release it at a slightly lower-price point, slightly smaller and clad in pink plastic." The fact seems to be, pink gadgets sell. So I am not sure that the companies are "getting it wrong". Not saying that there couldn't be a better way. Also wondering about the oft cited former communist East European states with their high percentage of female engineers. I have heard that not many of them actually work as engineers. Don't have numbers, though. I wish more women would go into engineering, but to be honest, my attitude has become a bit cynical: I think women have more attractive choices (not in the least becoming stay at home mums, or working for unattractive salaries in fun jobs because husbands bring in the big money - fun jobs including kindergardener, nurse, fashion shop owners,...). Engineering, or let's talk about programming, is not actually that much fun in the real world. You sit in front of a screen all day long and wreck your brain. Talking with people is better for the soul, and women are smart enough to realize that. Yes, bring on the downvotes. I am not saying this is a law of nature, just that it is the current state of things for a variety of reasons.

barry-cotter 14y ago
Speaking as a current kindergarten teacher it's as.intellectually stimulating as watching paint dry. Nice and rewarding helping and educating kids but all I can say is thank fuck for the internet and naptime. And being a nurse is not a “fun” job. Working in fashion or the arts is one of those things where most of the compensation doesn't come in monetary form but neither healthcare nor education are fun like that.
- Tichy 14y ago
  Why did you become a kindergardener? Did you expect it to be more fun? And since you don't consider it to be fun anymore, have you considered to take up programming? If not, why not? As for nursing, no it is not "fun" in the strict sense, but I think it comes with a lot of expectations of emotional reward, helping other people and so on. I was using "fun" loosely. Btw, as a father with a kindergarden going kid, I hope the kindergardeners have some enthusiasm for the job... If you need help entering programming, get in touch. I live in Germany, though. Edit: actually, programming gets boring after a while, too, and people ponder steps to make it interesting again. Maybe the same could be done for kindergardening? Can't you think of ways of making it more fun again? A change from the routine perhaps? I worry a lot about my kid just doing standard stuff at kindergarden. On the other hand maybe it is unrealistic to expect more, and kids first have to go through the basic motions. (There are no lego mindstorm sets at my kid's kindergarden - but then kindergarden kids can't be expected to program, I suppose. But perhaps they could build robots, and the kindergardener could do the programming).

shanelja 14y ago

Here is my $0.02: I believe that the tech industry is dominated by men, that's a given, but I don't necessarily believe that we need more women, or even more men. At the moment, the tech industry has a surplus of jobs and not enough bodies to fill the desks, so what we need is more people, irrespective of age, gender, race, etc. In my opinion, it is extremely sexist to even suggest that we need more women in tech, it implies that the (large amount of) men who are currently in the industry are not doing their jobs correctly and should be replaced by women, that women would do a better job; granted, some women would do a better job, but so would some men. You can not force equality (a thing which you already have) upon the masses, but look at it like this, there aren't less women in tech because men don't want them there, there are just less women who are inclined to go in to technology, this isn't a case of "Male oppression is forcing us not to follow our dream", it's merely a case of less women having this dream. Let's be honest, from our earliest childhood years, we are given this impression that certain activities are for certain genders, and yes, to some degree this is wrong, I happen to like the colour pink and my sister absolutely loved playing in dirt, to my mothers disdain, but these young character building years are what defines us, the fact is that there are two genders, not one, and they are not always equal, we need to celebrate these differences instead of trying to subdue them in to none-existence. Personally, the finest developer I have ever met was a woman, so I have nothing against women in tech, but let's look at the fact, from a young age, boys are taught that playing computer games is a boys thing, playing these games often fosters a natural ability to understand computers. If you play model of honour enough times, you begin to recognize the path finding model which the computer takes, and at a very primal level you begin to understand the most simple AI elements, this experience builds your understanding of how computers works. I'm not saying this is the only way to get in to computers, I'm just giving the example which was relevant to myself. tl;dr: Stop blaming men for the lack of women in tech, take a look at your own base camp, men have given you equality for years now, just accept that most women don't want to go in to tech; not because they are women, but because, let's face it, we're a big bunch of nerds and foreveraloners and most sane people would do anything they could to stay out of this space.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
14y ago

nadam 14y ago

I hate the expression 'working in technology'. Because it does not say anything about what a person actually does or knows or likes. (For example I am a prototypical hacker/programmer, but not working in the 'tech industry'. I work as a software developer in a different industry right now (with lots of woman coworkers by the way).) So the author wants more women in marketing. (tech-marketing) Ok. But if my now 5 year old daughter will be interested in programming, math, algorithms, I will not force her to learn marketing just because Belinda Parmar says so. Yes I will be happy to talk about marketing with my daughter when she grows up, I am interested in marketing, but I equally happily will talk about the beauty of Hindley–Milner type inference with her.:)

Wintamute 14y ago

This article is odd. Isn't the real issue here that there are so few female programmers, computer scientists and researchers, i.e. the people actually making tech? Whether there are insufficient numbers of women in tech company marketing roles to effectively market products at a female audience seems to be a totally separate issue and ... well, somehow less problematic to me. It also seems quite demeaning to suggest that the only reason a girl would want to get into tech is to work at targeting advertising and PR at her own gender. How about a campaign to drastically improve science, math and computer science teaching at school from a young age, and work hard to ensure both genders get enough exposure so that the kids with the most aptitude and passion, whatever their gender, get a real chance to choose tech as a career path, instead of this marketing and PR bullshit?

countessa 14y ago

oh the irony - the article notes that "pink it and shrink it approach represents typically shallow thinking" and then we are invited to check out the twitter feed and website of "Belinda Parmar who is the author of Little Miss Geek".....

adaml_623 14y ago

"It's time to change things. Any chief executive with half an ounce of sense should be putting their blood, sweat and tears into ensuring that the make-up of their company mirrors the make-up of their market." What if my target market is teenagers...