6 ms·

Wow, this reads like dystopian science fiction. As I celebrate the holidays with my newly born human, I sure hope that more people start wanting to bet on brigh

Wow, this reads like dystopian science fiction. As I celebrate the holidays with my newly born human, I sure hope that more people start wanting to bet on brighter tomorrows and actually put some skin in the game.

Pooge 9mo ago
Don't you think this is due to economical reasons and not necessarily pessimism?
- TylerLives 9mo ago
  No, poor people have more kids (I'm guessing you implied the opposite).
  - Pooge 9mo ago
    Poor people tend to not understand the economical consequences of having kids. This and lack of contraceptive methods.
  - voshond 9mo ago
    I guess a bit of both? We live in such a capitalistic world by now, that most people’s happiness is, if they want it or not, tied to money. And I think society is moving further towards this. Having kids would be a large financial burden and given my projection, would mean I wouldn’t be able to guarantee a decent living and the mental stability, because kids are brutal and societal pressures are very hard to free yourself from. I grew up very poor and only very recently I was able to get out of debt i racked up just to survive (and sheer ignorance/living above my means, because I had nothing to lose and no perspective). I would hate myself of putting a child in that position myself. If money wouldn’t be such a dominant force in current society, I’d very much consider having children.
    - TylerLives 9mo ago
      >We live in such a capitalistic world by now, that most people’s happiness is, if they want it or not, tied to money. This is how people feel, but that feeling has to be wrong. We know from history that people lived with much less and they were much more mentally stable than we are today. To be fair, if everyone is poor, it's probably very different than just you being poor in a rich society.
    - whimsicalism 9mo ago
      social media means people have realized how poor they are relatively. otherwise we are not in a substantially more capitalist world in the west and people are only more affluent than in the past. obviously social media cannot explain everything about fertility, but i suspect it explains a significant portion of modern economic discontent among the professional/middle+ classes
      - voshond 9mo ago
        I tend to disagree, I think a lot more in our society has changed due to the commodification of basically everything combined with the capitalist tendencies to pervert and corrupt anything, as there is no limit to greed. I think the housing market, food pricing and many more aspects of live have started to outpace the average workers wage to a point where it’s hard to be optimistic about a brighter future. The dream of ownership, a car, a family has gotten significantly more expensive in relation to incomes. At least from the POV of an European
  - amanaplanacanal 9mo ago
    Do you mean poor countries? I believe fertility is most closely related to education of women. If they have other options, many choose not to have a dozen kids like our ancestors. It's both hard on their bodies, and they typically get stuck with almost all the domestic and child care duties.
  - GoToRO 9mo ago
    on the other hand, poor people don't fully understand their situation.
satori99 9mo ago
My first thought was about Children Of Men https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/ (Which is a harrowing, yet brilliant, film)
theoreticalmal 9mo ago
My kiddo is celebrating their second set of holidays this year. I have many friends who espouse some variant of “I don’t want to have kids because I don’t want to pass on my ‘messed up’ genes/the world doesn’t need more people/some other sad excuse”. It makes me wonder what their lives will look like then they’re 40-80 years old.
- ManuelKiessling 9mo ago
  Sad thing is, it’s affecting not just their lives when they are 80 years old, but ours too! Every childless old person is a person for which someone needs to take care of who isn’t family. That’s not to imply people don’t have the right to choose if they have kids or not — but let’s not pretend that we are not all paying the price for that decision.
  - clait 9mo ago
    I’d argue childless couples/people will have saved enough money to pay for their care.
    - satyrnein 9mo ago
      If other people didn't have children who grew up to be doctors, nurses, etc, there would be nobody to pay.
    - xen0 9mo ago
      Looking at those in my extended family that have reached retirement, this does not appear to be a given. End of life care* is highly variable in duration and costs and many people do not adequately prepare for expensive endings. * this is true of more than just care post retirement
      - mindslight 9mo ago
        Plus most of what needs to be done is highly informal and unstructured. Money can only buy so much. It can't buy someone who is going to actually represent your interests, rather than charging gobs of money for the illusion.
aeve890 9mo ago
>I sure hope that more people start wanting to bet on brighter tomorrows and actually put some skin in the game. I'm optimistic about the future but I can't see how's that related to have children. In any case, having children is putting someone else skin in the game, not mine.

Pooge 9mo ago

Don't you think this is due to economical reasons and not necessarily pessimism?

TylerLives 9mo ago
No, poor people have more kids (I'm guessing you implied the opposite).
- Pooge 9mo ago
  Poor people tend to not understand the economical consequences of having kids. This and lack of contraceptive methods.
- voshond 9mo ago
  I guess a bit of both? We live in such a capitalistic world by now, that most people’s happiness is, if they want it or not, tied to money. And I think society is moving further towards this. Having kids would be a large financial burden and given my projection, would mean I wouldn’t be able to guarantee a decent living and the mental stability, because kids are brutal and societal pressures are very hard to free yourself from. I grew up very poor and only very recently I was able to get out of debt i racked up just to survive (and sheer ignorance/living above my means, because I had nothing to lose and no perspective). I would hate myself of putting a child in that position myself. If money wouldn’t be such a dominant force in current society, I’d very much consider having children.
  - TylerLives 9mo ago
    >We live in such a capitalistic world by now, that most people’s happiness is, if they want it or not, tied to money. This is how people feel, but that feeling has to be wrong. We know from history that people lived with much less and they were much more mentally stable than we are today. To be fair, if everyone is poor, it's probably very different than just you being poor in a rich society.
  - whimsicalism 9mo ago
    social media means people have realized how poor they are relatively. otherwise we are not in a substantially more capitalist world in the west and people are only more affluent than in the past. obviously social media cannot explain everything about fertility, but i suspect it explains a significant portion of modern economic discontent among the professional/middle+ classes
    - voshond 9mo ago
      I tend to disagree, I think a lot more in our society has changed due to the commodification of basically everything combined with the capitalist tendencies to pervert and corrupt anything, as there is no limit to greed. I think the housing market, food pricing and many more aspects of live have started to outpace the average workers wage to a point where it’s hard to be optimistic about a brighter future. The dream of ownership, a car, a family has gotten significantly more expensive in relation to incomes. At least from the POV of an European
- amanaplanacanal 9mo ago
  Do you mean poor countries? I believe fertility is most closely related to education of women. If they have other options, many choose not to have a dozen kids like our ancestors. It's both hard on their bodies, and they typically get stuck with almost all the domestic and child care duties.
- GoToRO 9mo ago
  on the other hand, poor people don't fully understand their situation.

satori99 9mo ago

My first thought was about Children Of Men https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/ (Which is a harrowing, yet brilliant, film)

theoreticalmal 9mo ago

My kiddo is celebrating their second set of holidays this year. I have many friends who espouse some variant of “I don’t want to have kids because I don’t want to pass on my ‘messed up’ genes/the world doesn’t need more people/some other sad excuse”. It makes me wonder what their lives will look like then they’re 40-80 years old.

ManuelKiessling 9mo ago
Sad thing is, it’s affecting not just their lives when they are 80 years old, but ours too! Every childless old person is a person for which someone needs to take care of who isn’t family. That’s not to imply people don’t have the right to choose if they have kids or not — but let’s not pretend that we are not all paying the price for that decision.
- clait 9mo ago
  I’d argue childless couples/people will have saved enough money to pay for their care.
  - satyrnein 9mo ago
    If other people didn't have children who grew up to be doctors, nurses, etc, there would be nobody to pay.
  - xen0 9mo ago
    Looking at those in my extended family that have reached retirement, this does not appear to be a given. End of life care* is highly variable in duration and costs and many people do not adequately prepare for expensive endings. * this is true of more than just care post retirement
    - mindslight 9mo ago
      Plus most of what needs to be done is highly informal and unstructured. Money can only buy so much. It can't buy someone who is going to actually represent your interests, rather than charging gobs of money for the illusion.

aeve890 9mo ago

>I sure hope that more people start wanting to bet on brighter tomorrows and actually put some skin in the game. I'm optimistic about the future but I can't see how's that related to have children. In any case, having children is putting someone else skin in the game, not mine.