6 ms·

My coworker's 36 key Corne open-source keyboard setup

58 points by realsharkymark 9mo ago

realsharkymark 9mo ago
I work with the author at Nuon. He initially used a Kinesis like some coworkers, but refined it to a minimalist setup with an open-source Korne keyboard, that sits on top of his Macbook keyboard. When I first saw it, he initially had rubber bands holding it down. Now it's on a secure plate with even a company-coordinated color scheme for the keys. Interesting how his gaming experience led to a custom layer setup.
- Valodim 9mo ago
  Your product might actually relevant for me, but browsing your website I gotta say it's quite the turnoff that there is nothing there on your company. I could not find out, within reasonable time, where you are incorporated.
  - MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
    That is quite good feedback, and I will make sure we get that addressed asap. Thank you. FWIW, we're incorporated in delaware, and based in the US.
GavinNewsom 9mo ago
[flagged]
- realsharkymark 9mo ago
  Thank you governor for your service
Valodim 9mo ago
For anyone looking into this who doesn't want to design their own layout from scratch, a well maintained layout for small keyboards is Miryoku. Worked very well for me (in qwerty base + vim directional keys mode) on a keyboardio atreus
- exq 9mo ago
  I use this on my 42-key Corne: https://mark.stosberg.com/markstos-corne-3x5-1-keyboard-layout/ https://mark.stosberg.com/markstos-corne-3x5-1-keyboard-layo... It's a sensible starting layout that I've made very few changes to. I added a mousekeys/macro layer, moved single quote to put semicolon on pinky, added print screen bind, and added a homerow combo J+K for esc.
- MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
  I'm building a toucan (piantor style layout) and was thinking about using seniply layout, but this looks much better.
  - alphavibe 9mo ago
    I just got a toucan. The touch disc on it is great. Having a pointing device in fingers reach makes it appealing enough for me to consider upgrading from a corne.
- alphavibe 9mo ago
  Miryoku is a solid layout. Designing your own layout is definitely time consuming, and not something most should try diving into if they are new to small form factor keyboards.
  - evilduck 9mo ago
    Can't say I agree with the sentiment. Miryoku's layout looks pretty arbitrary, as is any other <60% setup. I daily drive a Planck (4 more total keys, but very similar levels of layout restrictions) and my layer designs are wildly different. I would say just find or build a keyboard with support for Via or Vial so that you can change things on the fly when it feels wrong. If you're going down the small form factor keyboard path you're already committed to rewiring muscle memory, you might as well design your layout to meet your specific needs too. It's highly unlikely you will encounter someone else's Miryoku layout in the wild and need to type on it.
    - 9mo ago
MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
disclaimer: I'm the ceo of this company. What started as a joke a few years ago has actually turned into really good signal. I've found that the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and are extremely productive. Causation or correlation?
- rgoulter 9mo ago
  > the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this (1) spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and (2) are extremely productive I think (1) is true. Whereas, (2) may be less so. Or at least, "smart but unproductive" is also a class. :) (And I'm sure there are those who have had bad experiences working with such people). I suppose using a keyboard like this is an expensive signal. As in.. it's fairly easy to buy a typical mechanical keyboard, but more difficult to get one of these small split keyboards. -- But I think this is just "interested in technical excellence", which is somewhat different than "highly productive". ;) As for these keyboards? The most pragmatic & superior tooling part isn't the "36-key keyboard" so much as "each thumb has 2-3 keys" each. That's what allows these keyboards to expressively bring the full functionality of the keyboard to within reach of the hands on home row.
  - MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
    You hit the nail on the head with the 2/3 thumb key bit. That is what was such a game changer for me with the kinesis. all the sudden you have real estate to take a layering approach that you just can't with normal keyboards. Smart but unproductive is a class. We've all had experiences with those types of engineers. I think startups generally weed them out though. It's hard to survive at a startup without being productive. I probably should have put that as a disclaimer up front.
  - lawn 9mo ago
    I think 3 thumb keys are too much as the thumb is slow and awkward to move. You can easily get by with 2 and you can get by with just one for normal usage. See my own keyboard layouts for inspiration: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybershard_layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe... https://www.jonashietala.se/series/t-34/ https://www.jonashietala.se/series/t-34/
darod 9mo ago
Curious have any of you tried the Charachorder? It's supposed to be the fastest "keyboard" to type on.
- alphavibe 9mo ago
  I havn't tried it but its way up on my list to try. Another one thats really out there is the svalboard. I really dig that the trackball is just under your hand.
eviks 9mo ago
the principles aren't sound > To promote balanced usage, ... equal distribution eliminates the strain of overextending the right fingers What overextension? You don't even type them frequently enough for your index/middle finger on the home row to notice anything, and "cognitive overhead" is lower if they're paired together. And neither is this strategy > we reach up for numbers,..This strategic approach ensures that my layout and daily typing tasks never overwhelm my cognitive load. The default numbers are so inconveniently placed that you don't really get much proficiency in using them, so you'll not lose much if you switch from some great numpad layout back to horizontal line just like using regular numpad has no effect on your ability to use the horizontal row And numpad can't overwhelm anything since is extremely common This is just bad strategy, using superficial logic to hurt ergonomics. The familiarity with more rarely used symbols might add overhead if broken, but maybe if symbols are mapped to the same numbers it won't be much? (this is at least plausible unlike with the numbers themselves)
- Analemma_ 9mo ago
  I love almost everything about the current revolution in keyboards (the mech switches, ergonomic layouts, and open-source designs), but I do think this arms race towards fewer and fewer keys is just getting ridiculous. Yes, you can use chords and layers, but at some point I think the cognitive overhead is outpacing whatever size and ergonomic advantages there could be, especially if you're a programmer and frequently need to type symbols from the weirder parts of the keyboard. Maybe people doing a lot of pure writing find them more useful, idk.
  - mandw 9mo ago
    I think the same thing, and then I went a little smaller! I went to a large split then to a 58 key split, then to a 42 key split. At 42 I saw no advantage in going smaller other than it being smaller if you liked the look of it. Then I wanted to try a small dactyl and that lead me to an already designed 36 key split and I love it. I lost some more keys and found that I can easily handle that. I would not say that the move from 42 to 36 made it more ergonomic but not worse. While I went from 42 to 36 without thinking there were downsides, I think going any smaller does start to compromise functionality for the sake of form. At 36, I think that even on a bigger keyboard I would emulate the layout I have now as it is so easy.
bluecalm 9mo ago
I often read about all those RSI problems and then how pinky fingers have a lot of duties. I find it strange. I type at decent speed and I barely use my pinky fingers at all. I press Caps-Lock, Tab, Shift and Enter with them as well as | and }. Pinkies are small and weak, why use them so much? That's surely neither ergonomic nor the fastest way to type. It also means I don't like the idea of a split keyboard. I reach across quite often. I've never recorded myself to be 100% sure about all the keys but I am regularly reaching for b and y with both hands depending on the word. This way "typo" is just two quick "progressing" taps - "ty" with the left hand and "po" with the right. Of course "po" is way more comfortable with a ring-middle finger instead of a pinky/ring finger. The whole idea of assigning keys to fingers doesn't sound too smart to me. Why would you type "ce" with the same finger? It's neither fast nor ergonomic. Why do it to yourself? >Home row mods live in the base layer. In my opinion, home row mods are nearly essential to make a layout this small work well. The idea is simple: your home row keys act as normal keys when tapped, but double as modifiers when held. I feel this is underexplored idea. After remapping my CapsLock to tap=Esc, hold=ctrl it went from the least used key on my keyboard to the most used one. I really like the idea of also doing it with home row keys, that must be very convenient after getting used to. That also seems completely free as you never (I think) hold those keys during normal computer use.
- hackerdood 9mo ago
  Only issue with home row key combos is the letter comes out delayed since it’s now waiting for keyup event to register single press vs keydown for a combo. You don’t notice that with caps lock remapping because caps lock doesn’t output anything. Ask me how I know :)
  - bluecalm 9mo ago
    Oh that's a good point! I forgot I actually tried it with jj or kj combos in VIM to exit insert mode and it was a bit annoying. That is before I found a way to re-map CapsLock to a dual duty key on Windows (I am using WSL2 but remaps go through Windows).
    - 9mo ago

I work with the author at Nuon. He initially used a Kinesis like some coworkers, but refined it to a minimalist setup with an open-source Korne keyboard, that sits on top of his Macbook keyboard. When I first saw it, he initially had rubber bands holding it down. Now it's on a secure plate with even a company-coordinated color scheme for the keys. Interesting how his gaming experience led to a custom layer setup.

Valodim 9mo ago
Your product might actually relevant for me, but browsing your website I gotta say it's quite the turnoff that there is nothing there on your company. I could not find out, within reasonable time, where you are incorporated.
- MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
  That is quite good feedback, and I will make sure we get that addressed asap. Thank you. FWIW, we're incorporated in delaware, and based in the US.

GavinNewsom 9mo ago

[flagged]

realsharkymark 9mo ago
Thank you governor for your service

Valodim 9mo ago

For anyone looking into this who doesn't want to design their own layout from scratch, a well maintained layout for small keyboards is Miryoku. Worked very well for me (in qwerty base + vim directional keys mode) on a keyboardio atreus

exq 9mo ago
I use this on my 42-key Corne: https://mark.stosberg.com/markstos-corne-3x5-1-keyboard-layout/ https://mark.stosberg.com/markstos-corne-3x5-1-keyboard-layo... It's a sensible starting layout that I've made very few changes to. I added a mousekeys/macro layer, moved single quote to put semicolon on pinky, added print screen bind, and added a homerow combo J+K for esc.
MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
I'm building a toucan (piantor style layout) and was thinking about using seniply layout, but this looks much better.
- alphavibe 9mo ago
  I just got a toucan. The touch disc on it is great. Having a pointing device in fingers reach makes it appealing enough for me to consider upgrading from a corne.
alphavibe 9mo ago
Miryoku is a solid layout. Designing your own layout is definitely time consuming, and not something most should try diving into if they are new to small form factor keyboards.
- evilduck 9mo ago
  Can't say I agree with the sentiment. Miryoku's layout looks pretty arbitrary, as is any other <60% setup. I daily drive a Planck (4 more total keys, but very similar levels of layout restrictions) and my layer designs are wildly different. I would say just find or build a keyboard with support for Via or Vial so that you can change things on the fly when it feels wrong. If you're going down the small form factor keyboard path you're already committed to rewiring muscle memory, you might as well design your layout to meet your specific needs too. It's highly unlikely you will encounter someone else's Miryoku layout in the wild and need to type on it.
  - 9mo ago

MorehouseJ09 9mo ago

disclaimer: I'm the ceo of this company. What started as a joke a few years ago has actually turned into really good signal. I've found that the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and are extremely productive. Causation or correlation?

rgoulter 9mo ago
> the engineers who care enough to invest in keyboards like this (1) spend a lot of time investing in their tooling and (2) are extremely productive I think (1) is true. Whereas, (2) may be less so. Or at least, "smart but unproductive" is also a class. :) (And I'm sure there are those who have had bad experiences working with such people). I suppose using a keyboard like this is an expensive signal. As in.. it's fairly easy to buy a typical mechanical keyboard, but more difficult to get one of these small split keyboards. -- But I think this is just "interested in technical excellence", which is somewhat different than "highly productive". ;) As for these keyboards? The most pragmatic & superior tooling part isn't the "36-key keyboard" so much as "each thumb has 2-3 keys" each. That's what allows these keyboards to expressively bring the full functionality of the keyboard to within reach of the hands on home row.
- MorehouseJ09 9mo ago
  You hit the nail on the head with the 2/3 thumb key bit. That is what was such a game changer for me with the kinesis. all the sudden you have real estate to take a layering approach that you just can't with normal keyboards. Smart but unproductive is a class. We've all had experiences with those types of engineers. I think startups generally weed them out though. It's hard to survive at a startup without being productive. I probably should have put that as a disclaimer up front.
- lawn 9mo ago
  I think 3 thumb keys are too much as the thumb is slow and awkward to move. You can easily get by with 2 and you can get by with just one for normal usage. See my own keyboard layouts for inspiration: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybershard_layout/ https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe... https://www.jonashietala.se/series/t-34/ https://www.jonashietala.se/series/t-34/

darod 9mo ago

Curious have any of you tried the Charachorder? It's supposed to be the fastest "keyboard" to type on.

alphavibe 9mo ago
I havn't tried it but its way up on my list to try. Another one thats really out there is the svalboard. I really dig that the trackball is just under your hand.

eviks 9mo ago

the principles aren't sound > To promote balanced usage, ... equal distribution eliminates the strain of overextending the right fingers What overextension? You don't even type them frequently enough for your index/middle finger on the home row to notice anything, and "cognitive overhead" is lower if they're paired together. And neither is this strategy > we reach up for numbers,..This strategic approach ensures that my layout and daily typing tasks never overwhelm my cognitive load. The default numbers are so inconveniently placed that you don't really get much proficiency in using them, so you'll not lose much if you switch from some great numpad layout back to horizontal line just like using regular numpad has no effect on your ability to use the horizontal row And numpad can't overwhelm anything since is extremely common This is just bad strategy, using superficial logic to hurt ergonomics. The familiarity with more rarely used symbols might add overhead if broken, but maybe if symbols are mapped to the same numbers it won't be much? (this is at least plausible unlike with the numbers themselves)

Analemma_ 9mo ago
I love almost everything about the current revolution in keyboards (the mech switches, ergonomic layouts, and open-source designs), but I do think this arms race towards fewer and fewer keys is just getting ridiculous. Yes, you can use chords and layers, but at some point I think the cognitive overhead is outpacing whatever size and ergonomic advantages there could be, especially if you're a programmer and frequently need to type symbols from the weirder parts of the keyboard. Maybe people doing a lot of pure writing find them more useful, idk.
- mandw 9mo ago
  I think the same thing, and then I went a little smaller! I went to a large split then to a 58 key split, then to a 42 key split. At 42 I saw no advantage in going smaller other than it being smaller if you liked the look of it. Then I wanted to try a small dactyl and that lead me to an already designed 36 key split and I love it. I lost some more keys and found that I can easily handle that. I would not say that the move from 42 to 36 made it more ergonomic but not worse. While I went from 42 to 36 without thinking there were downsides, I think going any smaller does start to compromise functionality for the sake of form. At 36, I think that even on a bigger keyboard I would emulate the layout I have now as it is so easy.

bluecalm 9mo ago

I often read about all those RSI problems and then how pinky fingers have a lot of duties. I find it strange. I type at decent speed and I barely use my pinky fingers at all. I press Caps-Lock, Tab, Shift and Enter with them as well as | and }. Pinkies are small and weak, why use them so much? That's surely neither ergonomic nor the fastest way to type. It also means I don't like the idea of a split keyboard. I reach across quite often. I've never recorded myself to be 100% sure about all the keys but I am regularly reaching for b and y with both hands depending on the word. This way "typo" is just two quick "progressing" taps - "ty" with the left hand and "po" with the right. Of course "po" is way more comfortable with a ring-middle finger instead of a pinky/ring finger. The whole idea of assigning keys to fingers doesn't sound too smart to me. Why would you type "ce" with the same finger? It's neither fast nor ergonomic. Why do it to yourself? >Home row mods live in the base layer. In my opinion, home row mods are nearly essential to make a layout this small work well. The idea is simple: your home row keys act as normal keys when tapped, but double as modifiers when held. I feel this is underexplored idea. After remapping my CapsLock to tap=Esc, hold=ctrl it went from the least used key on my keyboard to the most used one. I really like the idea of also doing it with home row keys, that must be very convenient after getting used to. That also seems completely free as you never (I think) hold those keys during normal computer use.

hackerdood 9mo ago
Only issue with home row key combos is the letter comes out delayed since it’s now waiting for keyup event to register single press vs keydown for a combo. You don’t notice that with caps lock remapping because caps lock doesn’t output anything. Ask me how I know :)
- bluecalm 9mo ago
  Oh that's a good point! I forgot I actually tried it with jj or kj combos in VIM to exit insert mode and it was a bit annoying. That is before I found a way to re-map CapsLock to a dual duty key on Windows (I am using WSL2 but remaps go through Windows).
  - 9mo ago