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I think the reason python won was that it was easy to learn and read and was batteries included. vs perl: People need to solve their problems, not fight with s

I think the reason python won was that it was easy to learn and read and was batteries included. vs perl: People need to solve their problems, not fight with syntax Theres a lot of network effects as well. The more people were using it, the more people will use it.

madduci 9mo ago
I don't believe the "syntax win" scenario. Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation, like yaml. I believe more in the ecosystem, specifically how the computer vision and machine learning movements have adopted python extensively as frontend language (the heavy weightlifting is still doing in C++). The exploit of numpy has brought many many use cases into the language as well.
- randallsquared 9mo ago
  > Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation, like yaml. The fact that YAML also won in its configuration file niche doesn't give you pause?
- gbalduzzi 9mo ago
  It's not about being beautiful or ugly, it's about being simple. Python is simple to read / write and easier to reason about, especially for people that need a programming language to solve a problem but are not software engineers. The reason it won, especially in data analysis, is because most data analyst are/were not software engineer and Python feels more natural to people. The indentation is not a big problem when a decent text editor is used
- evgen 9mo ago
  That 'ugly' required indentation and whitespace also made Python easier to read, especially for newbies and casual coders. A standard visual structure and a syntax that is pretty close to executable pseudo-code lowered the barrier to entry for a lot of people and made Python feel 'approachable'. This perception that it was easy to use helped increase the network effects other have noted.
- dpark 9mo ago
  I think the controversy around Python’s indentation helped it gain success. Regardless of how you feel about the choice, it’s a great opportunity for bike shedding and encouraged (and still encourages) a lot of talk about the language.
- juujian 9mo ago
  I was not exposed to much code before trying Python 2, and I always thought of the indentation and newlines as aesthetically pleasing and helpful. Same for yaml actually. Would argue that preferences on indentation etc. are just an acquired case.
- Joker_vD 9mo ago
  > don't believe the "syntax win" scenario. Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation, like yaml. That's like, your opinion. Python was explicitly designed being easy to learn, borrowing heavily from ABC, which actually experimented with different syntaxes to see what works and what doesn't. The indentations apparently helps a lot with this, along with ':' before the introduction of indented blocks.
- loloquwowndueo 9mo ago
  Indentation is there regardless, and is increasingly enforced by format-checking tooling which is more commonly an out-of-the-box offering for many ecosystems (gofmt). So why not make it have syntactical meaning since it’s already there in 99% of cases? It does feel weird at first but honestly it’s not something you’ll think about much after a while.
- markus_zhang 9mo ago
  Even for someone who has used more than one languages, I think Python is fine. It’s a lot prettier than the academic-HN preferred lispy languages.
- suriya-ganesh 9mo ago
  required indendation simplified a ton of readability problem with other languages for a regular user. There was no easy for people who wanted to get something done in a simple interface.
- f33d5173 9mo ago
  > Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation As opposed to the not required indentation that literally everyone who writes code ever does anyways? > believe more in the ecosystem, specifically how the computer vision and machine learning movements have adopted python extensively What came first, the chicken or the egg?
- kemayo 9mo ago
  "Ugly" is a very opinionated statement there. I personally find it's fine, and Python's required-indentation matches what I'd be doing anyway. It's no different to me than a project which lints indentation via something like gofmt.
- zahlman 9mo ago
  There are all sorts of other arguments people make, but it's frankly incomprehensible to me that some people find indentation-based block syntax "ugly" and the alternatives not so. I must wonder if this extends as far as not indenting code in braced languages.
kllkhaslndfjn 9mo ago
[dead]
fud101 9mo ago
Perl had the batteries and it had CPAN. Python borrowed the best bits of Perl and enjoyed a reputation which overlooked its many flaws. If it had been scrutinized as much as Perl, we'd have realized it was just as bad but in different ways.
- theamk 9mo ago
  This makes no sense.. Python _was_ heavily scrutinized when it was introduced - the whole "Perl vs Python" comparison was pretty popular for a while, with either of those being declared winner, depending on the author. If there is really a killer argument for Perl over Python that was overlooked in all those years, why don't you say that argument, or even better, write a blog post explaining why Perl is better than Python? Then we could discuss that instead of nebulous "different ways"/
  - fud101 9mo ago
    Perl had charm, it was respected by hackers for the joy it brought people who 'got' it. It still remains a beautiful language that I regret not learning due to having a superior taste. Python had none of it. I still don't understand how it won, stealing the halo of a language while having nothing of the sort. The only argument you can make is boring is better imho.
    - dpark 9mo ago
      Did you seriously start this thread just to ask people to confirm your bias? In that case, yes. Perl is beautiful. Python sucks and only succeeded because idiot developers couldn’t see the beauty of Perl. Python is poorly suited at every job except stealing potential Perl devs. Feel better?
    - BeetleB 9mo ago
      > it was respected by hackers for the joy it brought people who 'got' it Isn't that the crux of the issue? Perl was great if you're a hacker who 'got' it. For the remaining 95% of the population, Python worked. Lisp/Scheme are also beautiful to those who 'get' it. > I still don't understand how it won, stealing the halo of a language while having nothing of the sort. Plenty of people have already told you. 95% of programmers do programming to get the job done. The linguistics grad student I knew 20 years ago did his work in Python because it was easy (he had no programming background). He would have simply changed his thesis topic if Python didn't exist. He would not have learned Perl. Perl was for hackers. Python was for everyone.
zahlman 9mo ago
Python was batteries included, in the standard library, in an era where putting those kinds of things in the standard library made sense. Now there's tons of stuff they're deathly afraid of removing, that they would never remotely consider adding if it weren't already there. (If you don't believe me, have a flip through proposals on discuss.python.org for new additions. People think of Python as a language that's constantly adding and changing stuff and inadvertently causing breakage as a result, but it's actually very conservative relative to the volume of proposals.)
kamaal 9mo ago
>>I think the reason python won was that it was easy to learn and read and was batteries included. This is also a big reason why AI assisted programming will wholesale replace Python programmers. If your are optimising for people who wish to remain at beginner levels all life, and that replaced people using power tools to solve harder and bigger problems. It shouldn't be surprising that now some automation will replace you.

madduci 9mo ago

I don't believe the "syntax win" scenario. Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation, like yaml. I believe more in the ecosystem, specifically how the computer vision and machine learning movements have adopted python extensively as frontend language (the heavy weightlifting is still doing in C++). The exploit of numpy has brought many many use cases into the language as well.

randallsquared 9mo ago
> Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation, like yaml. The fact that YAML also won in its configuration file niche doesn't give you pause?
gbalduzzi 9mo ago
It's not about being beautiful or ugly, it's about being simple. Python is simple to read / write and easier to reason about, especially for people that need a programming language to solve a problem but are not software engineers. The reason it won, especially in data analysis, is because most data analyst are/were not software engineer and Python feels more natural to people. The indentation is not a big problem when a decent text editor is used
evgen 9mo ago
That 'ugly' required indentation and whitespace also made Python easier to read, especially for newbies and casual coders. A standard visual structure and a syntax that is pretty close to executable pseudo-code lowered the barrier to entry for a lot of people and made Python feel 'approachable'. This perception that it was easy to use helped increase the network effects other have noted.
dpark 9mo ago
I think the controversy around Python’s indentation helped it gain success. Regardless of how you feel about the choice, it’s a great opportunity for bike shedding and encouraged (and still encourages) a lot of talk about the language.
juujian 9mo ago
I was not exposed to much code before trying Python 2, and I always thought of the indentation and newlines as aesthetically pleasing and helpful. Same for yaml actually. Would argue that preferences on indentation etc. are just an acquired case.
Joker_vD 9mo ago
> don't believe the "syntax win" scenario. Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation, like yaml. That's like, your opinion. Python was explicitly designed being easy to learn, borrowing heavily from ABC, which actually experimented with different syntaxes to see what works and what doesn't. The indentations apparently helps a lot with this, along with ':' before the introduction of indented blocks.
loloquwowndueo 9mo ago
Indentation is there regardless, and is increasingly enforced by format-checking tooling which is more commonly an out-of-the-box offering for many ecosystems (gofmt). So why not make it have syntactical meaning since it’s already there in 99% of cases? It does feel weird at first but honestly it’s not something you’ll think about much after a while.
markus_zhang 9mo ago
Even for someone who has used more than one languages, I think Python is fine. It’s a lot prettier than the academic-HN preferred lispy languages.
suriya-ganesh 9mo ago
required indendation simplified a ton of readability problem with other languages for a regular user. There was no easy for people who wanted to get something done in a simple interface.
f33d5173 9mo ago
> Python is also ugly, due to the required indentation As opposed to the not required indentation that literally everyone who writes code ever does anyways? > believe more in the ecosystem, specifically how the computer vision and machine learning movements have adopted python extensively What came first, the chicken or the egg?
kemayo 9mo ago
"Ugly" is a very opinionated statement there. I personally find it's fine, and Python's required-indentation matches what I'd be doing anyway. It's no different to me than a project which lints indentation via something like gofmt.
zahlman 9mo ago
There are all sorts of other arguments people make, but it's frankly incomprehensible to me that some people find indentation-based block syntax "ugly" and the alternatives not so. I must wonder if this extends as far as not indenting code in braced languages.

kllkhaslndfjn 9mo ago

[dead]

fud101 9mo ago

Perl had the batteries and it had CPAN. Python borrowed the best bits of Perl and enjoyed a reputation which overlooked its many flaws. If it had been scrutinized as much as Perl, we'd have realized it was just as bad but in different ways.

theamk 9mo ago
This makes no sense.. Python _was_ heavily scrutinized when it was introduced - the whole "Perl vs Python" comparison was pretty popular for a while, with either of those being declared winner, depending on the author. If there is really a killer argument for Perl over Python that was overlooked in all those years, why don't you say that argument, or even better, write a blog post explaining why Perl is better than Python? Then we could discuss that instead of nebulous "different ways"/
- fud101 9mo ago
  Perl had charm, it was respected by hackers for the joy it brought people who 'got' it. It still remains a beautiful language that I regret not learning due to having a superior taste. Python had none of it. I still don't understand how it won, stealing the halo of a language while having nothing of the sort. The only argument you can make is boring is better imho.
  - dpark 9mo ago
    Did you seriously start this thread just to ask people to confirm your bias? In that case, yes. Perl is beautiful. Python sucks and only succeeded because idiot developers couldn’t see the beauty of Perl. Python is poorly suited at every job except stealing potential Perl devs. Feel better?
  - BeetleB 9mo ago
    > it was respected by hackers for the joy it brought people who 'got' it Isn't that the crux of the issue? Perl was great if you're a hacker who 'got' it. For the remaining 95% of the population, Python worked. Lisp/Scheme are also beautiful to those who 'get' it. > I still don't understand how it won, stealing the halo of a language while having nothing of the sort. Plenty of people have already told you. 95% of programmers do programming to get the job done. The linguistics grad student I knew 20 years ago did his work in Python because it was easy (he had no programming background). He would have simply changed his thesis topic if Python didn't exist. He would not have learned Perl. Perl was for hackers. Python was for everyone.

zahlman 9mo ago

Python was batteries included, in the standard library, in an era where putting those kinds of things in the standard library made sense. Now there's tons of stuff they're deathly afraid of removing, that they would never remotely consider adding if it weren't already there. (If you don't believe me, have a flip through proposals on discuss.python.org for new additions. People think of Python as a language that's constantly adding and changing stuff and inadvertently causing breakage as a result, but it's actually very conservative relative to the volume of proposals.)

kamaal 9mo ago

>>I think the reason python won was that it was easy to learn and read and was batteries included. This is also a big reason why AI assisted programming will wholesale replace Python programmers. If your are optimising for people who wish to remain at beginner levels all life, and that replaced people using power tools to solve harder and bigger problems. It shouldn't be surprising that now some automation will replace you.