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The basic thing proponents don’t understand is that nobody in their right mind can intuitively understand IPV6 addresses because they look like MAC addresses wi

The basic thing proponents don’t understand is that nobody in their right mind can intuitively understand IPV6 addresses because they look like MAC addresses with trisomy and are a pain in the ass to remember or type for absolutely no benefit to the non-network engineer. And there are infinitely more people with home routers and a few dozen devices than there are people running ISPs, fortune 500s, and data centres. Play with your convolution all you want, in 20 years the rest of us will still be happily assigning 192.168.x.x and ignoring it. V4 space running out is no more the average persons problem than undersea cables or certificate authority.

Dylan16807 9mo ago
> nobody in their right mind can intuitively understand IPV6 addresses If someone can't understand "it's longer" then what is wrong with them? And using hex instead of decimal for magic computer numbers should be more intuitive, not less. Also structure-wise the first half is the subnet and the second half is the host. That's much more intuitive than IPv4. > absolutely no benefit to the non-network engineer If you do anything peer to peer at all, calls or file transfers or games, there's a benefit. And the typical benefit grows over time as more and more ISPs install CGNAT.
- transcriptase 9mo ago
  > And using hex instead of decimal for magic computer numbers should be more intuitive, not less. How? Why is using hex any more intuitive than binary or a md5 hash for anyone who doesn’t do networking for a living? >If you do anything peer to peer at all, calls or file transfers or games, there's a benefit. And the typical benefit grows over time as more and more ISPs install CGNAT. Again how? I’ve been doing all of those without issue for nearly 30 years. What measurable benefit does the user see that hasn’t been a solved problem since Windows XP? Will my teams calls suddenly stop saying “poor network connection” on my 1000/1000 rock solid fibre connection? Will torrents suddenly find more seeds and peers? Will my games… have lower latency? Because I can’t think of another way anything networking related could be solved that wasn’t decades ago. When you say benefit, it should probably be noticeable or measurable in some way that doesn’t involve dashboards and millions of dollars in rack mounted gear.
  - Dylan16807 9mo ago
    > What measurable benefit does the user see that hasn’t been a solved problem since Windows XP? Things being able to connect, and not having to manually port forward (when that's even an option). Hole punching is super unreliable with CGNAT. > Will my teams calls suddenly stop saying “poor network connection” on my 1000/1000 rock solid fibre connection? I don't know how Teams relays data, but for some services yes that could happen if IPv4 can't make a direct connection. > Will torrents suddenly find more seeds and peers? Yes. In a typical torrent an annoyingly small fraction of seeds and peers can receive connections. If you're IPv4-only behind CGNAT, you can't connect to them and they can't connect to you. IPv6 opens up a lot more links. > Will my games… have lower latency? It depends on how the game is designed. But some games will have lower latency because they can connect people directly instead of with relays.
  - orangeboats 9mo ago
    >How? Why is using hex any more intuitive than binary or a md5 hash for anyone who doesn’t do networking for a living? Well, what is the address range for 192.168.0.0/27? That's also non-intuitive for a layman as well. In the end, IP addresses are made for computers, not humans. And... just FYI, >Will torrents suddenly find more seeds and peers? Suggests to me you have absolutely never tried out torrenting under CGNAT. It's painful. Not a single seeder can _actively_ send the data to you, your client must seek them by itself and it's not uncommon to have only 1-4 seeders connected!
- mzajc 9mo ago
  > Also structure-wise the first half is the subnet and the second half is the host. That's much more intuitive than IPv4. This only applies to /64 blocks, which are by no means standard. For instance, tunnelbroker.net will give you a /48 for free. This means IPv6 addresses are essentially free by the billions, but it's difficult to figure out how big of a block they belong to from the outside.
  - orangeboats 9mo ago
    Regardless of the prefix size, a subnet is always /64 in IPv6. A shorter prefix simply means you can have more /64 subnets.
justsomehnguy 9mo ago
> intuitively understand IPV6 addresses because they look like MAC addresses with trisomy and are a pain in the ass to remember or type I have north of 500 IPs I have some relation to. No way I would be bothered to remember them. Typing? Do you type IPv4s all day long? And it's still copy-paste 99% of times. > for absolutely no benefit to the non-network engineer Non-network engineer should work with names. And non-engineers don't 'work' with IPs at all. Look at your granpa - he's typing 'bbc' into the search form in the browser to get to bbc.com. > nobody in their right mind can intuitively understand IPV6 addresses And 99% of so called engineers can't understand even IPv4. So this is a moot point.
ssl-3 9mo ago
I agree. It's easy to tell someone to connect to something like 203.0.113.88. Many of us here, and also normal folks, have been saying dotted-octets like that for decades, now, and there's a familiar patter to the way that addresses like this flow off of the tongue. It's hard to tell someone to connect to 2601:3c7:4f80:1a01:4d2:3b7a:9c10:6f5e. It's literally difficult to say, like saying it is intended to be some kind of test. And on the other end? Sure, we "all" "learned" hexadecimal at some point in school, but regular humans don't use hex so it sounds like missile launch codes (at best) or some kind of sadistic prank (at worst) to them. It reeks of phonic unfamiliarity and disdain. (This is the part where the DNS folks invariably show up to announce that I'm holding it wrong. And I love DNS; I do. But I'm really not interested in maintaining public DNS for the dynamic addresses at home on my LAN.) (After that, it becomes time for the would-be abbreviators to appear and tell me that the address for this computer is wrong, somehow, as if I ever had an active part in selecting the address to begin with.)
- ninkendo 9mo ago
  > After that, it becomes time for the would-be abbreviators to appear and tell me that the address for this computer is wrong, somehow, as if I ever had an active part in selecting the address to begin with Ok, I'll bite. Why exactly do you not have the ability to select the address? As a general rule, if you care about an IPv6 address enough that you have to type it in somewhere, you should be assigning it manually, and if you're doing that you can make it a lot friendlier than 2601:3c7:4f80:1a01:4d2:3b7a:9c10:6f5e. The whole second half of the address can be shortened to ::<digit>, where the length of <digit> scales logarithmically to the number of memorable addresses you want in that network. My network at home uses ULA addresses for everything, and I just use my phone number in the first half, so the address of my router at home is e.g. fd21:2555:1212::1, my NAS is fd21:2555:1212::a, etc. The global (GUA) address is something like 2601:abc:def:1201::a, which isn't that bad. Hell, if you don't care about the potential of conflicts if you ever merge networks with someone else, you can just use fd00:: as your ULA prefix, and your router can be fd00::1, your NAS box can be fd00::2, etc. Shorter than IPv4 addresses!
  - ssl-3 9mo ago

Dylan16807 9mo ago

> nobody in their right mind can intuitively understand IPV6 addresses If someone can't understand "it's longer" then what is wrong with them? And using hex instead of decimal for magic computer numbers should be more intuitive, not less. Also structure-wise the first half is the subnet and the second half is the host. That's much more intuitive than IPv4. > absolutely no benefit to the non-network engineer If you do anything peer to peer at all, calls or file transfers or games, there's a benefit. And the typical benefit grows over time as more and more ISPs install CGNAT.

transcriptase 9mo ago
> And using hex instead of decimal for magic computer numbers should be more intuitive, not less. How? Why is using hex any more intuitive than binary or a md5 hash for anyone who doesn’t do networking for a living? >If you do anything peer to peer at all, calls or file transfers or games, there's a benefit. And the typical benefit grows over time as more and more ISPs install CGNAT. Again how? I’ve been doing all of those without issue for nearly 30 years. What measurable benefit does the user see that hasn’t been a solved problem since Windows XP? Will my teams calls suddenly stop saying “poor network connection” on my 1000/1000 rock solid fibre connection? Will torrents suddenly find more seeds and peers? Will my games… have lower latency? Because I can’t think of another way anything networking related could be solved that wasn’t decades ago. When you say benefit, it should probably be noticeable or measurable in some way that doesn’t involve dashboards and millions of dollars in rack mounted gear.
- Dylan16807 9mo ago
  > What measurable benefit does the user see that hasn’t been a solved problem since Windows XP? Things being able to connect, and not having to manually port forward (when that's even an option). Hole punching is super unreliable with CGNAT. > Will my teams calls suddenly stop saying “poor network connection” on my 1000/1000 rock solid fibre connection? I don't know how Teams relays data, but for some services yes that could happen if IPv4 can't make a direct connection. > Will torrents suddenly find more seeds and peers? Yes. In a typical torrent an annoyingly small fraction of seeds and peers can receive connections. If you're IPv4-only behind CGNAT, you can't connect to them and they can't connect to you. IPv6 opens up a lot more links. > Will my games… have lower latency? It depends on how the game is designed. But some games will have lower latency because they can connect people directly instead of with relays.
- orangeboats 9mo ago
  >How? Why is using hex any more intuitive than binary or a md5 hash for anyone who doesn’t do networking for a living? Well, what is the address range for 192.168.0.0/27? That's also non-intuitive for a layman as well. In the end, IP addresses are made for computers, not humans. And... just FYI, >Will torrents suddenly find more seeds and peers? Suggests to me you have absolutely never tried out torrenting under CGNAT. It's painful. Not a single seeder can _actively_ send the data to you, your client must seek them by itself and it's not uncommon to have only 1-4 seeders connected!
mzajc 9mo ago
> Also structure-wise the first half is the subnet and the second half is the host. That's much more intuitive than IPv4. This only applies to /64 blocks, which are by no means standard. For instance, tunnelbroker.net will give you a /48 for free. This means IPv6 addresses are essentially free by the billions, but it's difficult to figure out how big of a block they belong to from the outside.
- orangeboats 9mo ago
  Regardless of the prefix size, a subnet is always /64 in IPv6. A shorter prefix simply means you can have more /64 subnets.

justsomehnguy 9mo ago

> intuitively understand IPV6 addresses because they look like MAC addresses with trisomy and are a pain in the ass to remember or type I have north of 500 IPs I have some relation to. No way I would be bothered to remember them. Typing? Do you type IPv4s all day long? And it's still copy-paste 99% of times. > for absolutely no benefit to the non-network engineer Non-network engineer should work with names. And non-engineers don't 'work' with IPs at all. Look at your granpa - he's typing 'bbc' into the search form in the browser to get to bbc.com. > nobody in their right mind can intuitively understand IPV6 addresses And 99% of so called engineers can't understand even IPv4. So this is a moot point.

ssl-3 9mo ago

I agree. It's easy to tell someone to connect to something like 203.0.113.88. Many of us here, and also normal folks, have been saying dotted-octets like that for decades, now, and there's a familiar patter to the way that addresses like this flow off of the tongue. It's hard to tell someone to connect to 2601:3c7:4f80:1a01:4d2:3b7a:9c10:6f5e. It's literally difficult to say, like saying it is intended to be some kind of test. And on the other end? Sure, we "all" "learned" hexadecimal at some point in school, but regular humans don't use hex so it sounds like missile launch codes (at best) or some kind of sadistic prank (at worst) to them. It reeks of phonic unfamiliarity and disdain. (This is the part where the DNS folks invariably show up to announce that I'm holding it wrong. And I love DNS; I do. But I'm really not interested in maintaining public DNS for the dynamic addresses at home on my LAN.) (After that, it becomes time for the would-be abbreviators to appear and tell me that the address for this computer is wrong, somehow, as if I ever had an active part in selecting the address to begin with.)

ninkendo 9mo ago
> After that, it becomes time for the would-be abbreviators to appear and tell me that the address for this computer is wrong, somehow, as if I ever had an active part in selecting the address to begin with Ok, I'll bite. Why exactly do you not have the ability to select the address? As a general rule, if you care about an IPv6 address enough that you have to type it in somewhere, you should be assigning it manually, and if you're doing that you can make it a lot friendlier than 2601:3c7:4f80:1a01:4d2:3b7a:9c10:6f5e. The whole second half of the address can be shortened to ::<digit>, where the length of <digit> scales logarithmically to the number of memorable addresses you want in that network. My network at home uses ULA addresses for everything, and I just use my phone number in the first half, so the address of my router at home is e.g. fd21:2555:1212::1, my NAS is fd21:2555:1212::a, etc. The global (GUA) address is something like 2601:abc:def:1201::a, which isn't that bad. Hell, if you don't care about the potential of conflicts if you ever merge networks with someone else, you can just use fd00:: as your ULA prefix, and your router can be fd00::1, your NAS box can be fd00::2, etc. Shorter than IPv4 addresses!
- ssl-3 9mo ago