8 ms·

I believe the new grad DOGE employees were GS-15s. So yes, it seems likely that they plan to hire at GS-14 or GS-15.

by ivanech 9mo ago

ethbr1 9mo ago
Nothing like putting in a multi decade civil service career and coming in one day to find a 20-something installed over you whose primary qualification was being hired at a "friendly" tech company and making the right kind of joke around the CEO. ... although that seems depressingly like it would also be the experience with new administrators being installed in executive agencies every 4 years, except they're slightly older. Man, if only there were some way to retain talent in the face of political leadership transitions... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform...
- sheepscreek 9mo ago
  Not being dismissive of your experience (or that of a civil servant with 10s of years of experience). I have a deep respect for that kind of work and folks who give up more lucrative opportunities in order to serve their country and fellow citizens. > whose primary qualification was being hired at a "friendly" tech company and making the right kind of joke around the CEO That’s being awfully dismissive of the individuals skill set. Nobody gets the job by making the right kind of jokes around the CEO. Nobody. Getting in the door takes hard work, talent and some amount of luck.
  - ipython 9mo ago
    For DOGE specifically? Would be interested to hear of those DOGE employees who truly deserved to be GS-15s due to their extensive experience in both tech and government.
    - zbentley 9mo ago
      > extensive experience in both tech and government. The USDS (group that was renamed to a part of DOGE) has previously hired with an emphasis on non government experience: http://govciomedia.com/usds-developing-innovative-approach-to-private-sector-hiring/ http://govciomedia.com/usds-developing-innovative-approach-t...
      - DANmode 9mo ago
        because, at the time, slick landers, and general good UI/UX was completely missing from government tech workflows.
      - ipython 9mo ago
        The USDS and DOGE had completely different mandates. Non government experience makes sense when you’re trying to learn the lessons of industry to improve gov website accessibility, performance and ux. On the other hand, trying to slash spending with no understanding of the agencies you’re working at- let alone any life experience for a lot of these folks- is a very different mandate.
- AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
  That’s the life of a civil servant though By function a GS will ALWAYS be subordinate to a political appointee and there’s nothing they can do about it I posted elsewhere that I left a govt career as a military officer precicely because of this reality. It’s like a old boring joke now that politicians are corrupt and worthless. I will tell you from the inside that not only is it true but it’s 10 times to 100 times worse than you think it is. I have multiple stories of operational systems, functions, whatever you wanna call them that we’re working exceptionally well had good backing, good funding and were completely wiped out because whoever became the deputy under secretary for that budget line decided they didn’t want to do it anymore. and completely shelved decades worth of work. Like literally I remember having to unplug a server that was running life-critical beacons for POWs because they weren’t being used enough. As if that weren’t enough that same development problem then shifted over to some new hot organization that is in the politicians jurisdiction and then they start over from scratch with none of the learning from the previous admin. There is no positive system that can be affected by the United States government It does not exist, they cannot functionally or structurally exist, because the government of the United States but is not and has never been built on supporting citizens or the global community it is built and has always been built to support wealthy politicians and that’s all. I’m not aware of how every other countries work but the ones I’ve seen the inside are the same Going into the government for the “mission” is probably the most intentionally ignorant thing somebody could do given the plethora of easily accessible data proving exactly this
  - zbentley 9mo ago
    > a GS will ALWAYS be subordinate to a political appointee It’s worth being specific about what is meant by “political appointee” here. That term has specific legal meaning in the context of federal staffing, and (as I understand it, not a lawyer) is not the same thing as “GS employee who was hired as part of an administration’s political agenda”.
    - AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
      Cause a “political” GS is not a thing hence why they have either congressional appointment or alternative pathway to political appointment
- zbentley 9mo ago
  > Nothing like putting in a multi decade civil service career and coming in one day to find a 20-something installed over you GS grade does not correspond directly to manager/managee relationships at plenty of federal agencies. Someone getting hired at a higher GS grade is not automatically “over you” in the formal reporting hierarchy. That’s not to say this never happens (GS:org chart level is the case more often than not, I’d guess), but it’s not a given. Now, if your issue is that agencies sometimes offer high (by the standards of current employees) GS grades to attract talented hires, then I agree that is a problem! The solution to that is to improve government pay scales and fix fed hiring more generally: https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/dear-mr-kupor-please-fix-federal https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/dear-mr-kupor-please-fix-fede... Until that is done, (good) policies like the Pendleton Act cannot help that much.
mixmastamyk 9mo ago
It still takes around 5-15 years to get to the upper end of the pay scale, currently $195K.
- AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
  Not true I was hired in under HQE accession in 2019 and made SES 4 equivalent with zero civilian time in service.
  - mixmastamyk 9mo ago
    https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-administration/fact-sheets/within-grade-increases/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-admi... Doesn't sound like you're talking about General Schedule.
    - AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
      Correct and there’s no legal requirement to use the GS. This new force could easily and legally acquire and pay through other schedules - happens all the time.
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]

I believe the new grad DOGE employees were GS-15s. So yes, it seems likely that they plan to hire at GS-14 or GS-15.

by ivanech 9mo ago

I believe the new grad DOGE employees were GS-15s. So yes, it seems likely that they plan to hire at GS-14 or GS-15.

Nothing like putting in a multi decade civil service career and coming in one day to find a 20-something installed over you whose primary qualification was being hired at a "friendly" tech company and making the right kind of joke around the CEO. ... although that seems depressingly like it would also be the experience with new administrators being installed in executive agencies every 4 years, except they're slightly older. Man, if only there were some way to retain talent in the face of political leadership transitions... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform...

sheepscreek 9mo ago
Not being dismissive of your experience (or that of a civil servant with 10s of years of experience). I have a deep respect for that kind of work and folks who give up more lucrative opportunities in order to serve their country and fellow citizens. > whose primary qualification was being hired at a "friendly" tech company and making the right kind of joke around the CEO That’s being awfully dismissive of the individuals skill set. Nobody gets the job by making the right kind of jokes around the CEO. Nobody. Getting in the door takes hard work, talent and some amount of luck.
- ipython 9mo ago
  For DOGE specifically? Would be interested to hear of those DOGE employees who truly deserved to be GS-15s due to their extensive experience in both tech and government.
  - zbentley 9mo ago
    > extensive experience in both tech and government. The USDS (group that was renamed to a part of DOGE) has previously hired with an emphasis on non government experience: http://govciomedia.com/usds-developing-innovative-approach-to-private-sector-hiring/ http://govciomedia.com/usds-developing-innovative-approach-t...
    - DANmode 9mo ago
      because, at the time, slick landers, and general good UI/UX was completely missing from government tech workflows.
    - ipython 9mo ago
      The USDS and DOGE had completely different mandates. Non government experience makes sense when you’re trying to learn the lessons of industry to improve gov website accessibility, performance and ux. On the other hand, trying to slash spending with no understanding of the agencies you’re working at- let alone any life experience for a lot of these folks- is a very different mandate.
AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
That’s the life of a civil servant though By function a GS will ALWAYS be subordinate to a political appointee and there’s nothing they can do about it I posted elsewhere that I left a govt career as a military officer precicely because of this reality. It’s like a old boring joke now that politicians are corrupt and worthless. I will tell you from the inside that not only is it true but it’s 10 times to 100 times worse than you think it is. I have multiple stories of operational systems, functions, whatever you wanna call them that we’re working exceptionally well had good backing, good funding and were completely wiped out because whoever became the deputy under secretary for that budget line decided they didn’t want to do it anymore. and completely shelved decades worth of work. Like literally I remember having to unplug a server that was running life-critical beacons for POWs because they weren’t being used enough. As if that weren’t enough that same development problem then shifted over to some new hot organization that is in the politicians jurisdiction and then they start over from scratch with none of the learning from the previous admin. There is no positive system that can be affected by the United States government It does not exist, they cannot functionally or structurally exist, because the government of the United States but is not and has never been built on supporting citizens or the global community it is built and has always been built to support wealthy politicians and that’s all. I’m not aware of how every other countries work but the ones I’ve seen the inside are the same Going into the government for the “mission” is probably the most intentionally ignorant thing somebody could do given the plethora of easily accessible data proving exactly this
- zbentley 9mo ago
  > a GS will ALWAYS be subordinate to a political appointee It’s worth being specific about what is meant by “political appointee” here. That term has specific legal meaning in the context of federal staffing, and (as I understand it, not a lawyer) is not the same thing as “GS employee who was hired as part of an administration’s political agenda”.
  - AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
    Cause a “political” GS is not a thing hence why they have either congressional appointment or alternative pathway to political appointment
zbentley 9mo ago
> Nothing like putting in a multi decade civil service career and coming in one day to find a 20-something installed over you GS grade does not correspond directly to manager/managee relationships at plenty of federal agencies. Someone getting hired at a higher GS grade is not automatically “over you” in the formal reporting hierarchy. That’s not to say this never happens (GS:org chart level is the case more often than not, I’d guess), but it’s not a given. Now, if your issue is that agencies sometimes offer high (by the standards of current employees) GS grades to attract talented hires, then I agree that is a problem! The solution to that is to improve government pay scales and fix fed hiring more generally: https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/dear-mr-kupor-please-fix-federal https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/dear-mr-kupor-please-fix-fede... Until that is done, (good) policies like the Pendleton Act cannot help that much.

mixmastamyk 9mo ago

It still takes around 5-15 years to get to the upper end of the pay scale, currently $195K.

AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
Not true I was hired in under HQE accession in 2019 and made SES 4 equivalent with zero civilian time in service.
- mixmastamyk 9mo ago
  https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-administration/fact-sheets/within-grade-increases/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-admi... Doesn't sound like you're talking about General Schedule.
  - AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
    Correct and there’s no legal requirement to use the GS. This new force could easily and legally acquire and pay through other schedules - happens all the time.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]