8 ms·

NATO is dead.

by java-man 10mo ago

NATO is dead.

alephnerd 10mo ago
Maybe Europe should have listened to us during the Obama admin [0] instead of blowing us off. Now you reap what you sow. We have been signaling to Europe for decades that we will be pivoting to Asia - that is where most of our troops are [1] and where much of our trade originates [2]. Either European states load share or they can deal with the Russian menace on their own. If Europe can't even help Ukraine independently, then how would they even help us in the Indo-Pacific? The Europeans have no excuse given that Japan and South Korea have continued to maintain their own defensive capacity while under a US defense shield. [0] - https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/05/remarks-president-obama-nato-summit-press-conference https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/0... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deploym... [2] - https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/topyr.html https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/t...
- fifilura 10mo ago
  Europe has much stronger defense than e.g. Japan. Where did you buy your Kool-Aid? South Korea is a special case but so is Finland and Poland and Greece. Russia is a formidable enemy (although not nearly as competent as many thought before 2022). You are much better off if you have allies and friends when fighting a war.
- jltsiren 10mo ago
  From a European perspective, the primary purpose of NATO between 1992 and 2022 was to avoid wasting money on defense. Europe was willing to accept a world order, where the US was the hegemon and paid for the privilege. If the US does not want to do that anymore, European countries will grudgingly increase defense spending. To the extent they feel threatened. The is no expectation that Europe would help the US in the Indo–Pacific. That's out of the scope for NATO, which is a North Atlantic alliance. Even territories such as Hawaii and French Guiana are considered distant colonies under the treaties, rather than integral parts of the member states. If someone invaded them, it would not concern NATO.
  - alephnerd 10mo ago
    > the primary purpose of NATO between 1992 and 2022 was to avoid wasting money on defense. Europe was willing to accept a world order, where the US was the hegemon and paid for the privilege We shifted away from that policy in the Obama administration as part of the Pivot to Asia. We publicly vocalized this shift in strategy [0] during my time in the policy space. Europe did not listen. Instead, they dragged us into Libya because France ran out of munitions within a week of air strikes. That should have been the first warning call. Then Western and Northern European nations (except the UK) ignored the second warning in 2014 following the Russian annexation of Crimea and the War in Donbas. > The is no expectation that Europe would help the US in the Indo–Pacific Your leadership have messaged otherwise, like the UK [1], France [2], and Italy [3] Yet we cannot trust the rest of Europe, especially looking at Spain's [4] steady pivot to China and Merkel's pro-China policies [5] before the recent pivot [6]. This is why under the Obama administration we ourselves began pivoting to Asia, because we are not in a position to fight a conventional war with both Russia and China. -------- And what are you complaining about? We're taking the gloves off now. Deal with the Russians on your own while they are being armed by the Chinese [7]. The leaders you voted to power should have listened when we publicly and privately vocalized this shift in policy for decades. [0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6U81KNpyXPI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6U81KNpyXPI [1] - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10052/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] - https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/regional-strategies/indo-pacific/the-indo-pacific-a-priority-for-france/ https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/regional-str... [3] - https://rsis.edu.sg/rsis-publication/rsis/italys-silent-engagement-in-the-indo-pacific/ https://rsis.edu.sg/rsis-publication/rsis/italys-silent-enga... [4] - https://ceias.eu/whats-behind-spains-pivot-to-china/ https://ceias.eu/whats-behind-spains-pivot-to-china/ [5] - https://www.cap-lmu.de/download/2015/CAP-WP_German-China-Policy-Sep2015.pdf https://www.cap-lmu.de/download/2015/CAP-WP_German-China-Pol... [6] - https://merics.org/en/comment/germanys-recent-china-policy https://merics.org/en/comment/germanys-recent-china-policy [7] - https://www.ft.com/content/52ea7aab-f8d1-46b6-9d66-18545c5ef9b9 https://www.ft.com/content/52ea7aab-f8d1-46b6-9d66-18545c5ef...
    - jltsiren 10mo ago
lysace 10mo ago
The US part of it is. So Europe needs to be build nuclear weapons and delivery mechanisms like nothing before.

NATO is dead.

Maybe Europe should have listened to us during the Obama admin [0] instead of blowing us off. Now you reap what you sow. We have been signaling to Europe for decades that we will be pivoting to Asia - that is where most of our troops are [1] and where much of our trade originates [2]. Either European states load share or they can deal with the Russian menace on their own. If Europe can't even help Ukraine independently, then how would they even help us in the Indo-Pacific? The Europeans have no excuse given that Japan and South Korea have continued to maintain their own defensive capacity while under a US defense shield. [0] - https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/05/remarks-president-obama-nato-summit-press-conference https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/0... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deploym... [2] - https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/topyr.html https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/t...

fifilura 10mo ago
Europe has much stronger defense than e.g. Japan. Where did you buy your Kool-Aid? South Korea is a special case but so is Finland and Poland and Greece. Russia is a formidable enemy (although not nearly as competent as many thought before 2022). You are much better off if you have allies and friends when fighting a war.
jltsiren 10mo ago
From a European perspective, the primary purpose of NATO between 1992 and 2022 was to avoid wasting money on defense. Europe was willing to accept a world order, where the US was the hegemon and paid for the privilege. If the US does not want to do that anymore, European countries will grudgingly increase defense spending. To the extent they feel threatened. The is no expectation that Europe would help the US in the Indo–Pacific. That's out of the scope for NATO, which is a North Atlantic alliance. Even territories such as Hawaii and French Guiana are considered distant colonies under the treaties, rather than integral parts of the member states. If someone invaded them, it would not concern NATO.
- alephnerd 10mo ago
  > the primary purpose of NATO between 1992 and 2022 was to avoid wasting money on defense. Europe was willing to accept a world order, where the US was the hegemon and paid for the privilege We shifted away from that policy in the Obama administration as part of the Pivot to Asia. We publicly vocalized this shift in strategy [0] during my time in the policy space. Europe did not listen. Instead, they dragged us into Libya because France ran out of munitions within a week of air strikes. That should have been the first warning call. Then Western and Northern European nations (except the UK) ignored the second warning in 2014 following the Russian annexation of Crimea and the War in Donbas. > The is no expectation that Europe would help the US in the Indo–Pacific Your leadership have messaged otherwise, like the UK [1], France [2], and Italy [3] Yet we cannot trust the rest of Europe, especially looking at Spain's [4] steady pivot to China and Merkel's pro-China policies [5] before the recent pivot [6]. This is why under the Obama administration we ourselves began pivoting to Asia, because we are not in a position to fight a conventional war with both Russia and China. -------- And what are you complaining about? We're taking the gloves off now. Deal with the Russians on your own while they are being armed by the Chinese [7]. The leaders you voted to power should have listened when we publicly and privately vocalized this shift in policy for decades. [0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6U81KNpyXPI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6U81KNpyXPI [1] - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10052/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] - https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/regional-strategies/indo-pacific/the-indo-pacific-a-priority-for-france/ https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/regional-str... [3] - https://rsis.edu.sg/rsis-publication/rsis/italys-silent-engagement-in-the-indo-pacific/ https://rsis.edu.sg/rsis-publication/rsis/italys-silent-enga... [4] - https://ceias.eu/whats-behind-spains-pivot-to-china/ https://ceias.eu/whats-behind-spains-pivot-to-china/ [5] - https://www.cap-lmu.de/download/2015/CAP-WP_German-China-Policy-Sep2015.pdf https://www.cap-lmu.de/download/2015/CAP-WP_German-China-Pol... [6] - https://merics.org/en/comment/germanys-recent-china-policy https://merics.org/en/comment/germanys-recent-china-policy [7] - https://www.ft.com/content/52ea7aab-f8d1-46b6-9d66-18545c5ef9b9 https://www.ft.com/content/52ea7aab-f8d1-46b6-9d66-18545c5ef...
  - jltsiren 10mo ago

lysace 10mo ago

The US part of it is. So Europe needs to be build nuclear weapons and delivery mechanisms like nothing before.